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Roster Talent

ShortSideOption said:
I guess that's my point. I tell people Pelini inherited a worse situation than Frost and still was able to win 9 games his first two seasons, and they immediately say "well Pelini inherited better talent than Frost.." I agree there, but why could Pelini keep the good talent he had? There was an article written about how Pelini basically had zero attrition back in the day. Frost has lost four stars Guy Thomas, Tristan Gebbia, Tyjon Lindsey, Avery Roberts, Breon Dixon, Greg Bell, Miles Jones, Mo Washington, Cam Jones, CJ Smith, and he's gonna lose McQuitty after this season. Some of those guys were recruited by a different staff and Pelini hung onto them and created buy-in. Some of those guys were offensive guys, just like Pelini was able to keep defensive guys. And those are only the four stars i'm quoting as leaving.

We then sit here and say "well he needs his guys." Why? Pelini didn't need his guys, he grabbed dudes from offense, he took guys that were recruited for Cosgrove's 4-3 and made it work for his defense. He converted guys like Cody Glenn to linebacker from runningback. He created a brand new spot for Eric Hagg to man the PESO. Lance Thorell moved from WR to Safety. Why do we act like we wouldn't have recruited 4 star Farniok from South Dakota and he's not who we need? Why do we act like Brendan Jaimes who ran the exact same offense at Lake Travis is a guy that needs to fit our system? Football coaches make football players better.

Pelini's first recruiting class he had 25% of his guys leave the program. Frost already has close to 50% gone from his first class and we are only 18 months removed. Is that a Riley culture issue?

I'm just getting really sick of the excuses. At this point we are 21 games in. Let's roll. Let's quit with the made up excuses, because a lot of this has manifested itself from what's here now.
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Amen
 

HuskerStu said:
Pelini retained the OC because they actually had a pretty good offense the last year under Callahan. He didn't do it to keep players from transferring.
If Tyjon wanted nothing to do with the team then why even stick around for the start of the season? Bell didn't know he would get a waiver and sure af wouldn't have gotten one ten years ago.
And lets see Orlando Florida or Lincoln Nebraska? Justin McGriff and Katerian LeGrone had one month to change their commitment. Nebraska probably wasn't even on their radar before Frost left. I mentioned the early signing period due to recruits already signing to other schools, so the available recruiting pool between December and February was a lot smaller for Frost than any year before him.
Stay stuck on this narrative all you want, but its pretty clear it was two completely different situations.
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I just hope we eventually get to a point where we don't continually make excuses. Early signing period may be the worst one yet. Dan Mullen took over for 3-4 Jim McElwain at Florida and did fine with the early signing period, went 10-3 and is currently 7-2. Mario Cristobal took over at Oregon with the early signing period, went 9-4 and is currently 8-1. Herm Edwards wasn't even a college coach and has figured out how to manage the early signing day and get his teams over .500. Klieman isn't doing too bad at Kansas State first year despite the early signing period.
 
Huskerpilk said:
So whats the problem on the field? Is it primarily talent or coaching? 21 games in and still missing a boat load of talent that would no doubt would be making a difference this year. No doubt at all.

Are kids transferring at a greater rate than during the Pelini years....probably. Does that explain the entirety of the defections? Probably not. But by your post your saying the talent has left the building, yet you say stop making excuses 21 games in.

When I watch this team I see problems almost every where. And I'm not saying its just talent, but it can't be ignored. SF may have come in too brash and offended some of the Riley sensitivities but by all accounts it needed to be done. (And yes, I recognize some of the defections were his guys)
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I think they are letting talent leave that they could have tried to help stay like Tyjon Lindsey, Avery Roberts and people like that. They also brought in talent that is leaving so it's not on the previous staff but this current one like Greg Bell, Mo Washington, CJ Smith, Cam Jones, Miles Jones, and others. So I think there was talent on the roster when they got here, and some of it left. I get that from a new staff, build your culture. But don't sit here and blame it on needing your guys or culture when 11 of the 25 guys you brought in from your first class that the previous AD and coach had nothing to do with have already left. I think with the talent they had sitting here we could have won 6, 7, or 8 games last year. Certainly year 2 and 2019 we should have been on pace to win 7 or 8 with our trajectory and culture established from the end of 2018. I think now we've ran so many guys off (including ones we brought in) that we are really really young and lack depth causing what we are seeing now. I don't mind our staff doing that, but again let's try to look in the mirror a bit. We've made some missteps other coaches haven't.

You can look at my first paragraph and I would say our talent level is nowhere near where it needs to be. But we still have more talent than Purdue, Indiana, and Colorado. Anyone that says otherwise is trying to make excuses. We had a double digit lead on Colorado who just fired their head coach the year prior and ended up losing. Elevation was the cause. We had a double digit lead on Indiana at home and ended up losing. Starting QB was injured. We had a double digit lead on Purdue who was without their best playmaker and was down to their 3rd string walk-on QB. *insert whatever excuse*. Why can we get out to double digit leads with the talent we have, but start folding later in the game? I'll leave that open ended.

We have deficiencies everywhere, and year 2 where we are 21 games in I would say 80% of those are things that are due to who is here right now. Let's get better.
 



goodnterribles said:
He's tentative, so I'm curious as well. Is he hurt?

I will say this: after what I saw from McCaffrey, AM better step his game up next year.
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I think his knee was bothering him and he was bigger (not in a good way) compared to last year.

For better or worse, Martinez is our QB until he leaves the program. I get that from Frost.
 
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My thoughts are that the parts of the roster that are most difficult to build are stocked with young Talent

- OL. We have our entire OL returning, but beyond that the best of the offensive linemen are very young to young. Our highest ceiling starter is a RS Frosh at Center, the highest rated recruits are freshman. We put a ton of demands on our OT's to play in space and be able to run and pass block with little help, and we've recruited guys who should be able to do that in the future -- Corcoran, Benhart, Conn, Lynn, Banks, Anderson, Fritzsche and on the inside we have lots of talent as well, especially Piper who should be a multiyear starter.

One argument is that the OL regressed this year, but they've played well the past couple of games and the coaches showed that they can get an offense to click even in the B10 last year. The way we play our OL demands that the rest of the offense be working. You can't use 5 guys to block 8 or 9 in the box without a FB or with TE's who are often split out

- DL: Unlike the OL, we have a set of seniors starting this year, but the young talent is significant. Green preserved his RS and has 2 years to play now. Stille returns and I thought he's shown flashes this year. Daniels needs to be in better shape (old story), but can dominate for stretches. Ty Robinson's a future starter, Newsom's a good prospect, Graham's in the program, Rogers and Wildeman should be close to ready next year. Add a grad transfer tackle and this group is set up for the future

- QB: I also include this on the list of the hardest positions to develop. We were spoiled by AM's performance last year and this year is more typical of a performance by a young QB (OK, ,so worse), but we have Smothers coming in, Vedral and McCaffrey looked very good, and we should have depth here.

Our best LB's are all young for the most part.. we're counting on them to develop, but the talent is there for Henrich, Hannah, Nelson, Snodgrass, Reimer and others.

the rest of the skill positions are ones we can recruit and fill holes relatively quickly. With the OL/DL, and QB it's really difficult to fill holes unless you get really lucky with a grad transfer

Anyway, JMO
 
ShortSideOption said:
I just hope we eventually get to a point where we don't continually make excuses. Early signing period may be the worst one yet. Dan Mullen took over for 3-4 Jim McElwain at Florida and did fine with the early signing period, went 10-3 and is currently 7-2. Mario Cristobal took over at Oregon with the early signing period, went 9-4 and is currently 8-1. Herm Edwards wasn't even a college coach and has figured out how to manage the early signing day and get his teams over .500. Klieman isn't doing too bad at Kansas State first year despite the early signing period.
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Okay now those are fair comparisons. Again, I'm only stating that you can't compare Frost and Pelini's situation when it comes to players from a previous coaching staff staying or leaving. Both were in completely different situations at different times in college football. The early signing period was just one of many examples.
 
I didnt read the whole thread, but did they adjust all teams in the Big10 for there transfers too?
 




HuskerStu said:
Okay now those are fair comparisons. Again, I'm only stating that you can't compare Frost and Pelini's situation when it comes to players from a previous coaching staff staying or leaving. Both were in completely different situations at different times in college football. The early signing period was just one of many examples.
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I'll add it to the list of things that aren't this current staffs fault but would be if the head coach was anyone other than Frost.
 
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ShortSideOption said:
I think they are letting talent leave that they could have tried to help stay like Tyjon Lindsey, Avery Roberts and people like that. They also brought in talent that is leaving so it's not on the previous staff but this current one like Greg Bell, Mo Washington, CJ Smith, Cam Jones, Miles Jones, and others. So I think there was talent on the roster when they got here, and some of it left. I get that from a new staff, build your culture. But don't sit here and blame it on needing your guys or culture when 11 of the 25 guys you brought in from your first class that the previous AD and coach had nothing to do with have already left. I think with the talent they had sitting here we could have won 6, 7, or 8 games last year. Certainly year 2 and 2019 we should have been on pace to win 7 or 8 with our trajectory and culture established from the end of 2018. I think now we've ran so many guys off (including ones we brought in) that we are really really young and lack depth causing what we are seeing now. I don't mind our staff doing that, but again let's try to look in the mirror a bit. We've made some missteps other coaches haven't.

You can look at my first paragraph and I would say our talent level is nowhere near where it needs to be. But we still have more talent than Purdue, Indiana, and Colorado. Anyone that says otherwise is trying to make excuses. We had a double digit lead on Colorado who just fired their head coach the year prior and ended up losing. Elevation was the cause. We had a double digit lead on Indiana at home and ended up losing. Starting QB was injured. We had a double digit lead on Purdue who was without their best playmaker and was down to their 3rd string walk-on QB. *insert whatever excuse*. Why can we get out to double digit leads with the talent we have, but start folding later in the game? I'll leave that open ended.

We have deficiencies everywhere, and year 2 where we are 21 games in I would say 80% of those are things that are due to who is here right now. Let's get better.
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Great post. Honestly I was expecting so much more this year that watching them lose to Indiana and Purdue just really made it hit home how shaky this team is. Best case scenario is we have some bright moments over the next three games and maybe get an upset win to get a bowl. Everyone sleeps easier in the off-season and recruiting will ticks up a bit.
 



ShortSideOption said:
I guess that's my point. I tell people Pelini inherited a worse situation than Frost and still was able to win 9 games his first two seasons, and they immediately say "well Pelini inherited better talent than Frost.." I agree there, but why could Pelini keep the good talent he had? There was an article written about how Pelini basically had zero attrition back in the day. Frost has lost four stars Guy Thomas, Tristan Gebbia, Tyjon Lindsey, Avery Roberts, Breon Dixon, Greg Bell, Miles Jones, Mo Washington, Cam Jones, CJ Smith, and he's gonna lose McQuitty after this season. Some of those guys were recruited by a different staff and Pelini hung onto them and created buy-in. Some of those guys were offensive guys, just like Pelini was able to keep defensive guys. And those are only the four stars i'm quoting as leaving.

We then sit here and say "well he needs his guys." Why? Pelini didn't need his guys, he grabbed dudes from offense, he took guys that were recruited for Cosgrove's 4-3 and made it work for his defense. He converted guys like Cody Glenn to linebacker from runningback. He created a brand new spot for Eric Hagg to man the PESO. Lance Thorell moved from WR to Safety. Why do we act like we wouldn't have recruited 4 star Farniok from South Dakota and he's not who we need? Why do we act like Brendan Jaimes who ran the exact same offense at Lake Travis is a guy that needs to fit our system? Football coaches make football players better.

Pelini's first recruiting class he had 25% of his guys leave the program. Frost already has close to 50% gone from his first class and we are only 18 months removed. Is that a Riley culture issue?

I'm just getting really sick of the excuses. At this point we are 21 games in. Let's roll. Let's quit with the made up excuses, because a lot of this has manifested itself from what's here now.
Click to expand...
Are players leaving because they don’t “fit the system” or art they leaving because they don’t fit the expected culture? In other words, are people leaving because they are not prepared for the expected work load? Strength and conditioning may not have been as different between Callahan and Pelini as it is between Riley and Frost.
 
ShortSideOption said:
Agree, that's my issue. For example, guys like Guy Thomas (going to a team that just beat us two years in a row), Avery Roberts (leading tackler at Oregon State), Breon Dixon (4 star that was brought in by this staff and left during this staff), and Quayshon Alexander (left with this staff), those are 4 right there at a position we desperately need help at that have left. It really is self-inflicted with this staff on a lot of these things.

That said, what you bring up is why the metric used is a bit bogus to me.
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I think it is a pretty delicate balance between keeping talent and letting talent walk that isn't doing the things you want to build your culture on. Maybe there were just some players that the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Unfortunate that maybe too many of them were in a couple positions, but you can't hand pick where the "believers" are and who gets it. I know BD was a SF recruit, but maybe it goes back to who recruited those positions and the type of players they ended up going after?
 

ShortSideOption said:
I guess that's my point. I tell people Pelini inherited a worse situation than Frost and still was able to win 9 games his first two seasons, and they immediately say "well Pelini inherited better talent than Frost.." I agree there, but why could Pelini keep the good talent he had? There was an article written about how Pelini basically had zero attrition back in the day. Frost has lost four stars Guy Thomas, Tristan Gebbia, Tyjon Lindsey, Avery Roberts, Breon Dixon, Greg Bell, Miles Jones, Mo Washington, Cam Jones, CJ Smith, and he's gonna lose McQuitty after this season. Some of those guys were recruited by a different staff and Pelini hung onto them and created buy-in. Some of those guys were offensive guys, just like Pelini was able to keep defensive guys. And those are only the four stars i'm quoting as leaving.

We then sit here and say "well he needs his guys." Why? Pelini didn't need his guys, he grabbed dudes from offense, he took guys that were recruited for Cosgrove's 4-3 and made it work for his defense. He converted guys like Cody Glenn to linebacker from runningback. He created a brand new spot for Eric Hagg to man the PESO. Lance Thorell moved from WR to Safety. Why do we act like we wouldn't have recruited 4 star Farniok from South Dakota and he's not who we need? Why do we act like Brendan Jaimes who ran the exact same offense at Lake Travis is a guy that needs to fit our system? Football coaches make football players better.

Pelini's first recruiting class he had 25% of his guys leave the program. Frost already has close to 50% gone from his first class and we are only 18 months removed. Is that a Riley culture issue?

I'm just getting really sick of the excuses. At this point we are 21 games in. Let's roll. Let's quit with the made up excuses, because a lot of this has manifested itself from what's here now.
Click to expand...

OK, McQuitty is a great case study. Big bodied WR which the offense needs desperately. He can't see the field and you say he is leaving......why? Had 2 years under this staff....is his position coach stretched too thin by being OC? (not like he is calling plays) Is he not working hard enough? Will he not block? What keeps a 4* that on the surface is exactly what the team needs from answering the bell?
 
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