Strength doesn’t equal success but lack of it can equal to failure it’s hard to judge duval and his staff at the moment with limited time with athletes even with you example of Lamar and mo with regards to the fix period i would imagine all staff can improve on that there is specialized guys that we should if we don’t already bring it to teach but you can do that with every lift my personal opinion will be what do our guys look like when we return this year that will tell me if duval is the guy we need or to look elsewhere there will be slackers but if the majority look good from his creative workouts he is forced to make up then that is the sign of a guy who can make it happen in the long run
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Strength and Conditioning Discussion
- Thread starter SSM
- Start date
I don't know about any of this stuff other than what I see on the field. I come from the age of no weights for basketball guys, and don't drink water, eat these salt tablets era.
I live in Atlanta and over the years have become a Falcons fan, especially when I had a client who had season tickets and gave me tickets to 2 or 3 games a year. A couple of years back Matt Ryan had a play where he twisted his ankle bad. On a replay it looked like a season ender. He was back out on the next series with no visible limp. On his radio show during the week he was asked about it. He said the flexibility training they do allowed him to keep playing and no, nothing was injured. So I recognize the importance of flexibility.
I live in Atlanta and over the years have become a Falcons fan, especially when I had a client who had season tickets and gave me tickets to 2 or 3 games a year. A couple of years back Matt Ryan had a play where he twisted his ankle bad. On a replay it looked like a season ender. He was back out on the next series with no visible limp. On his radio show during the week he was asked about it. He said the flexibility training they do allowed him to keep playing and no, nothing was injured. So I recognize the importance of flexibility.
Well, I mean, teams like Indiana and Purdue had to be innovative and think outside the box. Meanwhile, we want HuskerPower but there's about 3 guys that even do it anymore. The football world is currently shifting towards not really wanting guys to blow it out in the weight room as much:
Plus, let's be honest, numbers are going down for football. Kids don't train like that much anymore. Back when I played it was 2.5 hours of practice then about 16 40 yard dashes at the end of the practice. McCaffrey and this training I mention next basically says that does nothing to train you, it's just exercise. There's a really cool program called "feed the cats" that basically is about this guy trying to figure out how to condition kids without them hating life, and how to sprint train them and get them faster and out for track to show results. Feel free to go down this rabbit hole, it's what I base a lot of my thought process on but you'll get lost in this if you're not careful:
The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats'
The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats' I coined 'Feed the Cats' 20 years ago. It began with the realization that jumpers and sprinters were fast-twitch athletes, like cats. When Chicago Leo beat one of my best-ever Harrisburg teams in 1998, they beat us with cats. My 400 and 800...trackfootballconsortium.com
It basically talks about how old school coaches hate this, because it's not about working harder than your opponent, it's about working smarter. As you brought up in another post, squatting more than 1.7 times your body weight probably is doing us no good, especially doing it over and over.
The bold got me to thinking, how much of what we are doing is for psychological reasons? Pushing limits, making the kids feel like they can do anything, etc. I’m sure that has some to do with it, right?
Totally agree. My comments on Lamar and Mo were simple observations without anything to know if I am right or not. I liked the way Lamar progressed as a man and a player. Thought that was pretty cool. Can't help but like Mo. I hold no judgment of Duval and Co simply because I have no real idea of what they do. I know watching him speak, videos, etc, he seems like a dude I'd like, so I root for him to be wildly successful. *** points things out that give me pause, but still, we don't really have a full book to judge or at least I don't. I like metrics, which is why I am drawn to the Indiana, now Tide coach's article posted. He quantifies it with what seems like good data. He is actually measuring speed on the field in MPH from one year to the next. That is crazy cool. If that is accurate and true, that seems like the magic measurement to end debates about his effectiveness. Pay the man! Me simply observing that a player seems slower or stiff or whatever is merely anecdotal at best. For all I know, Mo was faster and more athletic year over year. I don't care if he ran a 7.5 40, I'd still be a fan of his. Pretty sure he will be a productive citizen no matter what he decides to do.
Here is what gives me pause about criticizing without real facts and from a keyboard. I watch some of the old 90's replays where we were dominant. (Trying to get my kid to understand my NU fandom) I see Zach W pulling and he looks like a giant athletic freak with great mobility. Didn't he train under Husker Power? He is not the only one that looks and moves that way either. How come Husker Power didn't slow him/them down? Always makes me wonder. By the way, I believe Duval will make it happen in the long run. Typically, smart people realize there is so much still to learn, dumb people learn a little and act as if they know everything. I suspect he still tries to learn and adapt. I messed that quote up but you all understand what I'm getting at hopefully.
Kwajsker
Scout Team
Well, I mean, teams like Indiana and Purdue had to be innovative and think outside the box. Meanwhile, we want HuskerPower but there's about 3 guys that even do it anymore. The football world is currently shifting towards not really wanting guys to blow it out in the weight room as much:
Plus, let's be honest, numbers are going down for football. Kids don't train like that much anymore. Back when I played it was 2.5 hours of practice then about 16 40 yard dashes at the end of the practice. McCaffrey and this training I mention next basically says that does nothing to train you, it's just exercise. There's a really cool program called "feed the cats" that basically is about this guy trying to figure out how to condition kids without them hating life, and how to sprint train them and get them faster and out for track to show results. Feel free to go down this rabbit hole, it's what I base a lot of my thought process on but you'll get lost in this if you're not careful:
The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats'
The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats' I coined 'Feed the Cats' 20 years ago. It began with the realization that jumpers and sprinters were fast-twitch athletes, like cats. When Chicago Leo beat one of my best-ever Harrisburg teams in 1998, they beat us with cats. My 400 and 800...
It basically talks about how old school coaches hate this, because it's not about working harder than your opponent, it's about working smarter. As you brought up in another post, squatting more than 1.7 times your body weight probably is doing us no good, especially doing it over and over.
That was definitely worth the read and makes so much sense.
I remember running sixteen 400 meter runs in high school for one practice - in an effort to prepare me for the 800. Every year my times in track improved, plateaued, then dropped toward the end of the year and I absolutely could not wait for track season to be over.
I had previously wondered if most players on the FB team needed to be trained for speed, except linemen who should be made as strong as possible. Now I am questioning that. And I hope our coaches have done some serious thinking about it as well.
I keep coming back to the article you posted about Alabama's hire of Indiana's S&C guys. This HAD to get the attention of anyone who is serious about competing in CFB. The mindset of making our guys as big and strong as possible is ok if you are playing for 3 yards up the middle. But when your offense is built on playing fast, with tempo, you need guys who love your style and are peaking on Saturdays. Gotta think what we have seen each year with the team showing improvements as the season went on should give us hope about overtraining/burning out during the year.
We don't live in a world where you can just out-tough the other team. No coach ever said "Well, we lost because we can't squat as much as them." however, they have said "We got pushed around...we couldn't hold the line of scrimmage...we lost at the point of attack..."
Every school does it a little different and I am excited to see how we continue to grow in this area. Schools who are close to where they want to be will have benefited from the time to reflect and it will be interesting to see how we look moving into the future.
I've tried to read most of what's been posted here, but there is a lot to unpack. I like some of the comments about flexibility and explosiveness, but I didn't see a lot about quickness. A couple of other things I didn't see mentioned (or at least expanded upon):
1. Position-specific training. We've been speaking in some generalities, but the type of training that a nose tackle would engage in should be different from that of a cornerback.
2. Individual focused training. Even two people that play the same position have different strengths (which can be maximized) and weaknesses (which can be minimized). You don't want to try turning Wan'dale Robinson into Dedrick Mills, or vice versa.
I guess what I'm getting at is that each position, and each player at each position, is going to respond differently to workouts. There are certainly a core set of activities that everyone is doing, but there are different focuses for each guy. I think we should also keep in mind that the players themselves have to be accountable to themselves. If our staff is asking them to do one thing, but they're hellbent on improving something else, it's probably hard to stop them because you can't police every player all the time.
Finally, I have to ask @ShortSideOption something regarding the comments about 1990s Husker Power. My opinion is that we were certainly focused on strength back then, but we were also FAST. And fast at almost every position. We had really big dudes like Chris Dishman (listed at 310 pounds, which was probably an understatement) who could really move - it wasn't unusual to see a guy like him out in front of a running back tracking down a DB on a counter 20 yards downfield.
I got the impression (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you look at 90s Husker Power as simply a bodybuilding routine. I have to disagree, as we definitely had a speed component at that time. Heck, we had a speed component even before that. I used to coach with a former Blackshirt from the late 70s-early 80s, and he told me that the coaches said that if you didn't run a 40 in under 5 seconds, you wouldn't see the field - regardless of position. I doubt they held everyone to that standard, but there was an expectation of being able to move fast.
1. Position-specific training. We've been speaking in some generalities, but the type of training that a nose tackle would engage in should be different from that of a cornerback.
2. Individual focused training. Even two people that play the same position have different strengths (which can be maximized) and weaknesses (which can be minimized). You don't want to try turning Wan'dale Robinson into Dedrick Mills, or vice versa.
I guess what I'm getting at is that each position, and each player at each position, is going to respond differently to workouts. There are certainly a core set of activities that everyone is doing, but there are different focuses for each guy. I think we should also keep in mind that the players themselves have to be accountable to themselves. If our staff is asking them to do one thing, but they're hellbent on improving something else, it's probably hard to stop them because you can't police every player all the time.
Finally, I have to ask @ShortSideOption something regarding the comments about 1990s Husker Power. My opinion is that we were certainly focused on strength back then, but we were also FAST. And fast at almost every position. We had really big dudes like Chris Dishman (listed at 310 pounds, which was probably an understatement) who could really move - it wasn't unusual to see a guy like him out in front of a running back tracking down a DB on a counter 20 yards downfield.
I got the impression (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you look at 90s Husker Power as simply a bodybuilding routine. I have to disagree, as we definitely had a speed component at that time. Heck, we had a speed component even before that. I used to coach with a former Blackshirt from the late 70s-early 80s, and he told me that the coaches said that if you didn't run a 40 in under 5 seconds, you wouldn't see the field - regardless of position. I doubt they held everyone to that standard, but there was an expectation of being able to move fast.
Kwajsker
Scout Team
I would take developing quickness over top end speed most days. Quickness is another great measure of explosiveness and athleticism. I remember Oregon having that WR that was going to be an olympic sprinter. He made some plays against us (and very sadly, tore his ACL against us) but it feels like highly agile guys have hurt us more than super sprinters over the last several years.
All of that to say developing explosiveness seems to be more important than other kinds of training. Explosiveness at LB and in pass rushers is all the rage. Being able to move through resistance in 2 or 3 steps with acceleration is key. Though, most guys who are quick are also plenty fast.
One last thing - in a post about Purdue it was discussed whether Rondale Moore could be so good that we lost to them. I remember saying "we have fast guys, too." and it really brings to home the importance of TEAM speed. Developing that across positions and individuals. Some of our guys might not ever run 4.4, but if they can get a bit closer each year then our whole team will just seem to get to the ball faster.
Glad to see you opine here ***, your direction is much appreciated and although I've followed that which you said in the past I found it particularly refreshing to dwell on the thought of all these athletes on their own practicing flexibility and agility as a supplement to their covid training being a plus versus a minus. Hope springs eternal. GBR
ShortSideOption
Guest
All fair points. It's not like us lifting is bad for us. And let's be honest, can we hold S&C responsible for Mo Washington? Or do we shift that more towards Raising Canes and insubordination?
Again, I don't mind Duval as Frost's guy. Heck, it's pretty cool to finally see an administration, coaching staff, and strength team all working in one direction. I do believe our ceiling is a bit limited based on the ability to combine the two, but I also think we can get to where we want to be with Moos, Frost, and Duval which is playing for division titles and getting a shot to put one perfect game together for a conference title.
ShortSideOption
Guest
Absolutely. And I think that was a main point, "let's get these kids thinking they are squatting 900 pounds, they will think no one can stop them." I get that for sure. But i'll reference something that was told to me by a player that eventually left which is an interesting point... If you remember, when the staff first got here we had a few players head to the hospital and others sore for a couple weeks. What was the narrative? "This is how bad of shape we are in?" People ate that up, loved it. "See, it WAS that bad during the Riley era. I tried explaining how this wasn't a good thing for many reasons, but one thing that was said to me was this:
"A new staff comes in and you try to push yourself to show how hard of a worker you are. Then you see a couple of your boys head to the hospital, you yourself feel sore for a couple weeks and not able to show what you think you are capable of. And then we are told that's how bad of shape we are in? In the back of my mind I always worried if I pushed myself that hard again, would it happen to me next time?"
What he was getting at is a philosophy that I spout on here, these are 18-22 year old kids. All you have to do is protect them from themselves. A pushup and situp routine with our training table is going to get their bodies shaped correctly. But when the thought crept into their head that the people here may be trying to prove a point rather than help them get better, this guy was done from the start.
I'm not trying to say our circuit workout should never be used (I wouldn't use it, but I get why we do). I'm just telling you the way our staff approached things created some issues with doubt for kids.
ShortSideOption
Guest
It's funny, the coach that I knew that had been at a previous stop came with "if a quarter squat competition breaks out at the 50 to win the game, you guys will wreck people. But as it stands, you're 0-3 against teams that I know train with the CNS in min (referencing Purdue and Indiana)."
Again, he was exaggerating to prove a point. I like quarter squats for things. But I do think the "exercising vs training" thing is real. And to your point about everyone training for the same goal, how many teams hold up the 4th quarter sign? All of them. But if there's 128 teams in FBS, every staff has 128 ways where they thought they prepared better to get that done.
All i'm getting at is I think we exercise well. I think we put on muscle really well. But our guys lose athleticism and can't get to max speed as well as other teams like Indiana and now Alabama. But the good news is we are still pulling in better players every year compared to Purdue and Indiana, our base is that much higher. I just think Alabama hiring Dr Rhea and Ballou is going to be like pouring kerosene on a fire for them. They get their QB figured out and they will roll people.
ShortSideOption
Guest
Few really good points. The first, you can go even deeper than specific position training, it probably varies by athlete within position. For example, some athletes come in with different imbalances, some athletes come in not ever lifting. Different strokes for different folks.
In regard to 90s HuskerPower being body building, we may have to agree to disagree there. One thing I will give 90s HuskerPower is they had the flexibility, core, and ROM lifting down. Look at some of the old pics of us squatting back in the day, really low. Heck, our HC held the QB record for squat max back in the day at 475. That's where I get confused, you are telling guys they are squatting 850 pounds, so what happens to the squat records if guys are repping that amount of weight out? Couple that with us really being the only ones lifting compared to anyone else back in the day, and something is always better than nothing. But more isn't always better.
There's also a reason you could tell linemen they had to run under 5 seconds if they wanted to see the field back then. Literally only 3 OL at the combine ran under 5 seconds in the 40. A first, second, and fifth round pick. But back in the day it was a requirement to see the field in Lincoln? Why is it nearly impossible to do now? Athletes aren't getting slower, training isn't getting worse. It's an easy answer.
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When I read things about the Indiana (now Bama) guy I tend to go in the direction of "ok, lets get that guy instead", but I'm still willing to give Duval a chance to make our guys better and tweak the things they need to tweak. There is still time for that. Where I tend to get concerned is S&C guys don't move around a whole lot, so what is the breaking point if him and Frost are on the same page? What if it gets to a point where that is our true downfall and what is actually holding us back? Will Frost kick him to the curb? As I type this I lean towards no. Strength guys often last longer at schools than most coaches, sometimes spreading multiple coaching tenures. My biggest worry at the moment would be if it does start to hold us back where do we go from there?
ShortSideOption
Guest
You bring up my concern. We wanted HuskerPower, so you have to find who you want with about 3 guys still doing it. You also have a 13-0 2017 at UCF making them believe it does work (3 sub .500 seasons besides that). I think Frost is all in with Duval, and I completely get it. It's why I find positives to what we are doing even though some of the things said and done make me cringe "puke buckets" and "we aren't squatting" as a couple examples.
Time will tell - I'd imagine Duval will get a long runway, but not unlimited opportunities if athleticism & physical development is considered by Frost to be sub-standard.
Something that gets brought up with on-the-field coaches, but not so much with the S&C guys is continuity - the team has gone through quite a few strength coaches over the past couple decades, with different philosophies, none of them lasting particularly long, and most players switching at some point in their career.
I wonder if having a single philosophy (whether it's the best one or not), and working consistently at the same goal for all 4-5 years will yield better results than bouncing between different methods.
