Strength and Conditioning Discussion

[WeNeedMorePower]

I love these kinds of threads...

 

[ShortSideOption]

I love this type of insight that only few can provide. Hopefully they make some adjustments to get some more speed and not look so stiff at times. I got real tired of WRs/TEs crossing the middle of the defense to have linebackers 3-4 yards behind them with no chance of catching up. Would you attribute that to more scheme/players/S&C? Also hope that Martinez is in a little better shape, I watched some 2018 film and he had a lot more wiggle that year it seemed like. I suppose injuries could have played a part. As we all know the more you lose the more things you start to look at and wonder how wrong are we actually doing things, when in reality as you've pointed out we are a handful of plays away from having 8-9 wins in 2019.

Need football and need to start winning right meow.

Also they should get some media into these voluntary workouts and give us some more stuff to dissect.

I think our scheme had a bit to do with how we looked at our guys as well. I went into personnel matching being an issue for us here:

Film room: Lack of personnel matching and how offenses took advantage

It's been brought up numerous times about personnel matching defensively, and putting our players in positions to succeed could have helped us win at least a couple games this year without any talent upgrade or culture change. Just wanted to get some video of what people are talking about to...

forum.huskermax.com

It's impossible for our ILBs in the 3-4 to be able to stay with slot WRs like Rondale Moore, JD Spielman, or Wandale Robinson. We can help ourselves out there. But it shouldn't be impossible for our uncovered right OT to come down on an ILB and make a block, he falls down (second tweet, shovel pass):


That's a four star that Iowa and Wisconsin wanted. That's not a player issue, Matt Farniok is really good. My whole thing is our strength staff and football coaches should make whatever football players that are here better, I haven't seen that. It shouldn't be relegated to "their guys". And to that point (and to beat a dead horse) we are getting 90% of the guys offered by Colorado, Purdue, and Indiana. It's a development issue. It's a regression issue.

Now, if we can just start a season like we finished the last one, we will be on to something. I think we do that which is why I think 7 wins this year.

 

[ShortSideOption]

IMO people get way too caught up in the 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 squat debate. These are variations of the squat that are used in every D1 weight room in the country and are built into different mesocycles of the teams annual in-season and off-season program.

***’s flexibility comment is a more accurate description of what’s going wrong than anything else.

Also as the old adage goes “you can’t teach speed”

The fact of the matter is, the big time programs recruit speed and athleticism first, because they know they can pack good weight on a player. Outside of our recent pull of skill position players, I haven’t been extremely happy with the overall athleticism of the players we’ve added recently.

Agree there. We can absolutely use those 1/4 squats to our benefit. There was a comment our coach made about why we use them so much which concerned me (and why I bring it up a lot about the squatting), but the flexibility and imbalances are my main issue. It doesn't bother me that a kid thinks he can squat 900 pounds. I'm sure my kid will say he wants to go to the moon someday. Not gonna tell him to figure it out.

 

[ShortSideOption]

Wow, I asked for a *** response and got it!!! Nice. I didn't expect that much detail, but much appreciative. You are correct, we are probably in agreement on training. To qualify, I am no expert, not my job, but I am probably more versed than the average duck. I'll leave it at that. In summary, I suspect you are basically saying Power and Strength are only an advantage when speed increases as well. Increase power and strength while decreasing speed is a losing proposition in today's world of sport...regardless of which sport. Not saying power and strength are obsolete, just power and strength at the expense of speed is. Pretty good summary?

I don't have a lot of time yet to post anymore comments.. I will, but man....thanks, that was great, scary, interesting and about 5 other adjectives all wrapped in one. Appreciate it. Till later, apparently, I have to work some.

There's a place for everything. I just don't like how we have looked on the field and the regression shown by some guys.

 

[ShortSideOption]

What I have learned in this thread is the fact we needed a couple seasons to get our players up to size and now we need a couple seasons to get them faster and more athletic. Back to the good old days when players didnt see the field much until about their 3rd year after they were developed properly

That's another good point... our 2019 class is going to be really good. We haven't been at full strength. We've been really young. But I also saw a bunch of guys from 2018 to 2019 regress. I think we have things dialed in now, I just have to hope we don't see a year 2 regression with some guys we are counting on like we did with our QB. I think there were other factors at play for that regression on top of S&C, but I think that did play a part.

 

[ShortSideOption]

Yeah, have read up quite a bit on hex bar deadlifts ( deadlift bar), and how it has a more direct correlation to 40 times than other exercises. With the added benefit of its relative saftey, and ease of learning. Due to my age and past injuries and looking for effective safe exercises, I bought and donated one to my YMCA. Have used it religiously as an adjunct to my rowing training and the results have been pretty good. My power and times on the rower improved and got my hex bar deadlift up to 461, 8 plates + 2 25s, plus bar, all without injury! Think the explosive rowing also helped my deadlifting...synergistic.
Anyway, hex deadlifts is relatively safe, doesnt require spotters, and is effective according to the studies. But the Squat is fully ingrained in training history, and rightly so. But it is more prone to bad form and injuries. Does Duval use the hex dead at all?

Yep, we are using hex deadlift. Definitely a plus with our program that I like.

 

[djlhuskerfan]

I remember the days when a freshman would get recruited and come here and you would never hear about until about 3rd year in program. Hopefully we are getting to point where we can redshirt guys and let them develop couple years. Recently Jaimes was good example of getting thrown into action before he was ready. He has done ok though

 

[Kwajsker]

I posted that article back in March on this site and was greeted with some negativity about how it was a way to put down our staff, which is why I hesitated to post anything in here. But since you seem to be of the same beliefs as me, I went ahead and posted anyway.

Alabama and Nick Saban hiring away Indiana's S&C team

As many of you know, I was a fan of Turley at Stanford, but he unfortunately got canned so I had to go searching for guys that shared my same beliefs in what football training can look like and how it can impact on the field. I stumbled across two fellas at Indiana that Tom Allen hired in 2018...

forum.huskermax.com

That's right! I was trying to remember where I had seen the article and I couldn't recall if it had been during a random click through teams' news feeds or on here.

Thanks for posting it. It has to be turning heads around the country, right? If I had read just this article I would have called in the S&C team and said "alright guys, scrap everything..."

 

[Kwajsker]

With this self reflection, this self analysis by the coaching staff; will the S&C staff see the light? By Frost’s own words he wanted them bigger and it seems that that has been the emphasis these last two years. So are they going to shift gears after they get the size they want (I would bet they are close to the size requirement they are looking for) And work on the speed component?

It seemed like the philosophy in recruiting for years was to bring in guys who are more athletic and then bulk them up. Now it sure seems like we are trying to bring in guys who are big enough, at least with their frames, and then shape from there.

 

[HuskerFaith]

Wow, I asked for a *** response and got it!!! Nice. I didn't expect that much detail, but much appreciative. You are correct, we are probably in agreement on training. To qualify, I am no expert, not my job, but I am probably more versed than the average duck. I'll leave it at that. In summary, I suspect you are basically saying Power and Strength are only an advantage when speed increases as well. Increase power and strength while decreasing speed is a losing proposition in today's world of sport...regardless of which sport. Not saying power and strength are obsolete, just power and strength at the expense of speed is. Pretty good summary?

I don't have a lot of time yet to post anymore comments.. I will, but man....thanks, that was great, scary, interesting and about 5 other adjectives all wrapped in one. Appreciate it. Till later, apparently, I have to work some.

*** has a lot of respect from me. He has tremendous insight (at least the insight I want to hear). Wish I knew more about to so I could debate him ..... but alas .... I am here to learn. He’s da man

 

[ShortSideOption]

That's right! I was trying to remember where I had seen the article and I couldn't recall if it had been during a random click through teams' news feeds or on here.

Thanks for posting it. It has to be turning heads around the country, right? If I had read just this article I would have called in the S&C team and said "alright guys, scrap everything..."

Well, I mean, teams like Indiana and Purdue had to be innovative and think outside the box. Meanwhile, we want HuskerPower but there's about 3 guys that even do it anymore. The football world is currently shifting towards not really wanting guys to blow it out in the weight room as much:



Plus, let's be honest, numbers are going down for football. Kids don't train like that much anymore. Back when I played it was 2.5 hours of practice then about 16 40 yard dashes at the end of the practice. McCaffrey and this training I mention next basically says that does nothing to train you, it's just exercise. There's a really cool program called "feed the cats" that basically is about this guy trying to figure out how to condition kids without them hating life, and how to sprint train them and get them faster and out for track to show results. Feel free to go down this rabbit hole, it's what I base a lot of my thought process on but you'll get lost in this if you're not careful:

The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats'

The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats' I coined 'Feed the Cats' 20 years ago. It began with the realization that jumpers and sprinters were fast-twitch athletes, like cats. When Chicago Leo beat one of my best-ever Harrisburg teams in 1998, they beat us with cats. My 400 and 800...

trackfootballconsortium.com

It basically talks about how old school coaches hate this, because it's not about working harder than your opponent, it's about working smarter. As you brought up in another post, squatting more than 1.7 times your body weight probably is doing us no good, especially doing it over and over.

 

[SSM]

IMO people get way too caught up in the 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 squat debate. These are variations of the squat that are used in every D1 weight room in the country and are built into different mesocycles of the teams annual in-season and off-season program.

***’s flexibility comment is a more accurate description of what’s going wrong than anything else.

Also as the old adage goes “you can’t teach speed”

The fact of the matter is, the big time programs recruit speed and athleticism first, because they know they can pack good weight on a player. Outside of our recent pull of skill position players, I haven’t been extremely happy with the overall athleticism of the players we’ve added recently.

I think the references to 1/4 squats or any other is pretty much just a punch line for laughs now. I certainly realize they have a place and the theory behind them. I think the point is full range of motion shouldn’t be ignored. I seriously doubt that we only do partial squats exclusively anyway. I would think that there is a lot of good in Duvals program, debating little snippets is really not fair to him, but it does make for interesting discussion for us fans. I certainly don’t ever want any of my discussion points to be construed as negative towards him or any other husker coach. He probably has forgotten more than I’ll ever know. It’s fun to discuss, but not negative intended. Anyway, valid points and agree. Good post.

 

[ShortSideOption]

*** has a lot of respect from me. He has tremendous insight (at least the insight I want to hear). Wish I knew more about to so I could debate him ..... but alas .... I am here to learn. He’s da man

I'm pretty confident when it comes to the things I say about our program from what i've seen or been told by people I trust. I also feel like I have a good pulse on what's going on nationally with friends at other FBS and D2 schools. If you want to see me lose arguments just go into Hot Topics, I get chewed up and pooped out there. Or basically anything requiring more thought than spewing out what i've been told.

 

[2010sAreNeverComingBack]

That's definitely some good insight. And definitely speaks to there are many different ways to train for things. But without the game being 32 quarters I have a tough time modeling what we do after the Kenyan distance runners. I know you were just giving an example but this one may actually go back to the exercising vs training thing. Their exercise is actually training them for their event.

32 quarters cracked me up.

I would definite not model any serious football program S&C after distance running either (not sure I'd concur about serious distance runs being exercise vs. training, but that's probably not worth going off topic for), but there are some aspects of the theory that may be relevant.

One part of training is not just coming in feeling fresh, and being able to perform well at the start, but being able to explode and perform repeatedly perhaps up to 100 plays per game. That "overtraining" may be what helps the body be able to repeat the task to a high standard over the course of several hours, and why some of the weight room-obsessed, overtrained teams ( the 90s are the easiest example) didn't always blow teams away on the first few drives, but by the fourth quarter, were making mincemeat and running circles around players who could put up faster 40 times, etc.

Obviously, theories about this vary, I'm just personally inclined to think that there's still a lot to be said for training harder, and not always just smarter.

 

[SSM]

Well, I mean, teams like Indiana and Purdue had to be innovative and think outside the box. Meanwhile, we want HuskerPower but there's about 3 guys that even do it anymore. The football world is currently shifting towards not really wanting guys to blow it out in the weight room as much:



Plus, let's be honest, numbers are going down for football. Kids don't train like that much anymore. Back when I played it was 2.5 hours of practice then about 16 40 yard dashes at the end of the practice. McCaffrey and this training I mention next basically says that does nothing to train you, it's just exercise. There's a really cool program called "feed the cats" that basically is about this guy trying to figure out how to condition kids without them hating life, and how to sprint train them and get them faster and out for track to show results. Feel free to go down this rabbit hole, it's what I base a lot of my thought process on but you'll get lost in this if you're not careful:

The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats'

The Origin and Philosophical Basis of 'Feed the Cats' I coined 'Feed the Cats' 20 years ago. It began with the realization that jumpers and sprinters were fast-twitch athletes, like cats. When Chicago Leo beat one of my best-ever Harrisburg teams in 1998, they beat us with cats. My 400 and 800...

trackfootballconsortium.com

It basically talks about how old school coaches hate this, because it's not about working harder than your opponent, it's about working smarter. As you brought up in another post, squatting more than 1.7 times your body weight probably is doing us no good, especially doing it over and over.

Rabbit hole. Been down that path! Nothing like a good rabbit hole to burn hours I’ll never get back. Seriously, Great information for those interested.
I’ll tell you, I see lots of “old school” training with high school kids in various sports. Bugs me, but I stay out of it. No win situation and I’ll end up in doghouse with the wife. Specifically, why I asked about the assessment/fix period for incoming freshman. It’s not easy to assess nor fix. In my opinion, the S&C coach is the equivalent of a coordinator. Some top notch winning coaches have figured it out. If I had to predict, in 5 years they will be paid equal to coordinators. Assistants will benefit as well.
Thanks for posting.