Regardless of manufacturer, you need to determine what the actual 'Incentive' is up front at the start of the negotiation.
My last new purchase was a 2018 2500 Silverado. GM was doing a $10k manufacturers rebate. That's awesome, but what people forget is that if the vehicle is say $65,000 and you're getting $10 off, that $55,000 discounted price still includes ALL of the original dealer markup above invoice. Bottom line is they're is still plenty of room to negotiate a better deal.
Start by asking the EXACT amount of the rebate you'll be signing over to the dealer. If he says it's the $9 or $12 k amount you quoted above, then you know you've still got the difference between dealer invoice and remaining MSRP to play with. Some folks are fine with letting the dealer keep all of that profit, I was not. They need to make some money, but I'm not interested in letting them keep it all.
Do some digging on line and you'll be able to find dealer invoice on the vehicle. For mine, the dealer would have been pocketing around $5 grand in markup, but that varies from vehicle to vehicle. They can and will deal. I've actually gotten into their back end money (Manufacturer to dealer rebates) on deals. Again, not all of it, but if they've got $10k for me and they're getting another few thousand back end money, some are willing to deal. Many dealers get unit bonuses and that can be a pretty big driver at the end of the month.