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Strength and Conditioning Discussion

S

SSM

Red Shirt
2 Year Member
Okay, added to my skills, starting a post.

I've always found the discussions on our S&C staff to be quite entertaining all the way back to Dobson, Mark P and now Duval. To get this started and prod *** into more details (kidding) I'll start off with the 1/2 or 1/4 or 3/4 squat -- basically not a full range of motion.

The theory, as I understand it, is that these motions can be beneficial as long as full range squats are also done in training. The idea is that they can help build strength and size (have not seen speed mentioned but maybe speed too) because the weight can increase. Many have commented, somewhat negatively or at least sarcastically, about the video posts of guys suddenly squatting massive amounts of weights. Since we are in a forum, made up of opinions, I'll give an opinion. I've never been a fan of 1/2 anything. Full range of motion was always first and foremost. However, it appears there is at least some evidence that it can be beneficial to athletes. I'd probably side with using Bands, full range of motion and speed lifts, to create speed and power, but truth is, I don't know if 1/2 reps can do the same thing.

2nd topic that I seem to recall is the number of injuries we have endured with our freshman. I think somewhere in a thread, *** commented on I believe the Stanford S&C spending time "fixing" or assessing the functional movements of his incoming freshman. Basically, he fixes them before he loads weight so to speak. I'd agree that is a smart way to do things, loading dysfunction generally means injury is likely. My question is this, does Duval and company do a similar assessment and "fix period" before weights are added? I have no idea of knowing, I just assume that he does. I seriously doubt that he just ignores any dysfunction and pushes them into the deep end day 1.

3rd -- Not that we have any real need or right to know, but wouldn't it be ideal to publish certain speed, power, size, agility metrics each year for validation, for competition, etc? I mean, if we are turning 4.5 guys into 4.7 guys, that is a problem, even if they can now squat 700lbs. (generally referencing skill positions). Now, if we are turning 4.6 guys into 4.4 guys, I'd be posting and publishing those results all day long. I am not down on Duval and Co, but the one thing that seemed to me is that a number of guys looked slower during year 2. Mo Berry being one. His mobility and speed looked to have diminished. Could totally just be perception as I loved MB....I don't know, just seemed to jump out at me last year. The second example (again, who knows if this comment was right) was L. Jackson. I seem to remember somebody saying he had verified 4.4 speed as an incoming freshman and then ran 4.6 something at the combine. Not saying that is this S&C's doing, but that would be cause for concern.

4th -- I saw a comment some time ago from *** about loving the way that Luke M and brothers train. What are they doing and what do you like? I believe you said he would come back faster than ever. I'm really fascinated to know what it is you like as I have no way of knowing what he and his brothers do.

Again, I respect the fact that you probably withhold information because it doesn't need to leave the Husker walls, but anything you care to share would be interesting and thank you for contributing to this board. Your comments cause me to check this site all the time and led to me signing up for the COVID special. Which, by the way, Mr. Max, I seemingly can't figure out how to pay the $20.00. I will pay it as I don't need the COVID relief, but that was a very nice gesture on your part. However, I apparently need a little help although my skills are seemingly progressing quickly.
 




The law of diminishing returns should apply here, right?

The stronger (i.e.more weight on your squat max) the less explosive one tends to be, after a certain point. You go from a 500 lb squat max to a 600 lb squat max, you don't gain explosiveness in the same way as going from 200 lb to 300 lb.

And football is a game of explosiveness. Therefore, regular explosiveness testing should occur.

10 yard burst.
Shuttle.
Vertical Jump.
What else?

Work to increase strength to the utmost using the core, basic lifts. Measure explosiveness regularly and modify accordingly if explosiveness if plateauing.


Right?
 




Kwajsker said:
The law of diminishing returns should apply here, right?

The stronger (i.e.more weight on your squat max) the less explosive one tends to be, after a certain point. You go from a 500 lb squat max to a 600 lb squat max, you don't gain explosiveness in the same way as going from 200 lb to 300 lb.

And football is a game of explosiveness. Therefore, regular explosiveness testing should occur.

10 yard burst.
Shuttle.
Vertical Jump.
What else?

Work to increase strength to the utmost using the core, basic lifts. Measure explosiveness regularly and modify accordingly if explosiveness if plateauing.


Right?
Click to expand...
Love your post but Is this factual?:

The stronger (i.e.more weight on your squat max) the less explosive one tends to be, after a certain point. You go from a 500 lb squat max to a 600 lb squat max, you don't gain explosiveness in the same way as going from 200 lb to 300 lb.
 
Last edited:
HuskerFaith said:
Love your post but Is this factual?:

The stronger (i.e.more weight on your squat max) the less explosive one tends to be, after a certain point. You go from a 500 lb squat max to a 600 lb squat max, you don't gain explosiveness in the same way as going from 200 lb to 300 lb.
Click to expand...

Take a look at this article:

It talks about why Alabama hired the S&C program from Indiana.

https://www.stack.com/a/how-a-unique-speed-training-program-changed-indiana-football

Here is the money quote:

"Many folks believe the best way to get faster is to get stronger—that if you can lift more weight, you'll be able to put more force into the ground and propel yourself from A to B in less time. And since many regard the Barbell Back Squat as the "king" of lower-body exercises, pushing up your max there must be a surefire way to get faster.

Rhea's found it isn't quite that simple.

"The number I'm actually working off of now is 1.7 times your body weight. Once an athlete can squat 1.7 times their body weight, increases in squat strength beyond that are not contributing to speed," says Rhea."


Our program has looked a lot at getting stronger in the last few years and I wonder if there has been a shift away from the absolute highest squat as the measure to the utilization of varied exercises. This article is very informative about the idea of explosiveness vs. power, as well.


We absolutely needed to increase our strength and the squat is probably the best measure of overall lower body strength and power. Reading between the lines, it would appear that our S&C has made a bit of a shift to add some exercises that might shape how the body exhibits that power as explosively as possible. Those with real knowledge could probably support this claim.

Some of my guesses at this are based on what I have heard about what our athletes are doing while away from campus. A lot less is available to build the ultimate power from squatting/dead lifting/cleaning the heaviest weight one can. A lot is readily available to bring up the speed at which a player can carry out that powerful activity and has likely been a cornerstone of the at-home work outs our players have been doing during quarantine.

Probably with the mindset "Let's not try and get guys to focus on what will be very difficult for them to actually gain away from our weightroom. Let's focus on an area that they can make serious gains at, given the circumstances. At the very least, we will bring them back with as much or more explosiveness than they started and we'll work to add that overall strength back that we think we need once we can evaluate where they are."

Can I get a rebuttal/validation from someone who is doing more than reading between the lines?
 
Kwajsker said:
Take a look at this article:

It talks about why Alabama hired the S&C program from Indiana.

https://www.stack.com/a/how-a-unique-speed-training-program-changed-indiana-football

Here is the money quote:

"Many folks believe the best way to get faster is to get stronger—that if you can lift more weight, you'll be able to put more force into the ground and propel yourself from A to B in less time. And since many regard the Barbell Back Squat as the "king" of lower-body exercises, pushing up your max there must be a surefire way to get faster.

Rhea's found it isn't quite that simple.

"The number I'm actually working off of now is 1.7 times your body weight. Once an athlete can squat 1.7 times their body weight, increases in squat strength beyond that are not contributing to speed," says Rhea."


Our program has looked a lot at getting stronger in the last few years and I wonder if there has been a shift away from the absolute highest squat as the measure to the utilization of varied exercises. This article is very informative about the idea of explosiveness vs. power, as well.


We absolutely needed to increase our strength and the squat is probably the best measure of overall lower body strength and power. Reading between the lines, it would appear that our S&C has made a bit of a shift to add some exercises that might shape how the body exhibits that power as explosively as possible. Those with real knowledge could probably support this claim.

Some of my guesses at this are based on what I have heard about what our athletes are doing while away from campus. A lot less is available to build the ultimate power from squatting/dead lifting/cleaning the heaviest weight one can. A lot is readily available to bring up the speed at which a player can carry out that powerful activity and has likely been a cornerstone of the at-home work outs our players have been doing during quarantine.

Probably with the mindset "Let's not try and get guys to focus on what will be very difficult for them to actually gain away from our weightroom. Let's focus on an area that they can make serious gains at, given the circumstances. At the very least, we will bring them back with as much or more explosiveness than they started and we'll work to add that overall strength back that we think we need once we can evaluate where they are."

Can I get a rebuttal/validation from someone who is doing more than reading between the lines?
Click to expand...

Very interesting takes. Thanks for posting. I would tend to agree that moving heavier weight at slow speeds does not increase speed. I’d bet it decreases speed. I like the fact the Indiana coach (former) puts a number (1.7) on it, that is pretty cool. Directionally, I would definitely say he is a lot more correct than not. And btw, my opinion is worth about zero....give or take a few cents.
Best correlation imo for speed is the standing broad jump and/or box jump. Applying this a bit, I know guys that can squat a metric crap ton and they ain’t fast and they certainly are not setting records on a box jump or broad jump. Conversely, I see kids that can’t squat a ton, but they can box jump out of the gym....they are all fast. (Seemingly)
Certainly, core strength, hip mobility and probably other items dictate speed as well. That other little thing called genetics may have a role as well.
I’ll stop now or I’ll be competing with the SD ball coach for most words in a post. (I enjoy his posts, but I don’t want to be picked on the first day I decide to post)
Be curious to hear Coach Duval’s opinion on that. Anyway, can we get him to post on here to help out us curious fans? I’d pay the 20.00.

***’s take would be cool to hear as well. Actually, anyone’s take is interesting.
 



Kwajsker said:
Take a look at this article:

It talks about why Alabama hired the S&C program from Indiana.

https://www.stack.com/a/how-a-unique-speed-training-program-changed-indiana-football

Here is the money quote:

"Many folks believe the best way to get faster is to get stronger—that if you can lift more weight, you'll be able to put more force into the ground and propel yourself from A to B in less time. And since many regard the Barbell Back Squat as the "king" of lower-body exercises, pushing up your max there must be a surefire way to get faster.

Rhea's found it isn't quite that simple.

"The number I'm actually working off of now is 1.7 times your body weight. Once an athlete can squat 1.7 times their body weight, increases in squat strength beyond that are not contributing to speed," says Rhea."


Our program has looked a lot at getting stronger in the last few years and I wonder if there has been a shift away from the absolute highest squat as the measure to the utilization of varied exercises. This article is very informative about the idea of explosiveness vs. power, as well.


We absolutely needed to increase our strength and the squat is probably the best measure of overall lower body strength and power. Reading between the lines, it would appear that our S&C has made a bit of a shift to add some exercises that might shape how the body exhibits that power as explosively as possible. Those with real knowledge could probably support this claim.

Some of my guesses at this are based on what I have heard about what our athletes are doing while away from campus. A lot less is available to build the ultimate power from squatting/dead lifting/cleaning the heaviest weight one can. A lot is readily available to bring up the speed at which a player can carry out that powerful activity and has likely been a cornerstone of the at-home work outs our players have been doing during quarantine.

Probably with the mindset "Let's not try and get guys to focus on what will be very difficult for them to actually gain away from our weightroom. Let's focus on an area that they can make serious gains at, given the circumstances. At the very least, we will bring them back with as much or more explosiveness than they started and we'll work to add that overall strength back that we think we need once we can evaluate where they are."

Can I get a rebuttal/validation from someone who is doing more than reading between the lines?
Click to expand...

Man, I read that article again, I like this guy a lot. Thanks again for posting. Appreciate it. Anyone interested in this topic should definitely read. That article post alone was worth breaking my lurker status!
 
SSM said:
Very interesting takes. Thanks for posting. I would tend to agree that moving heavier weight at slow speeds does not increase speed. I’d bet it decreases speed. I like the fact the Indiana coach (former) puts a number (1.7) on it, that is pretty cool. Directionally, I would definitely say he is a lot more correct than not. And btw, my opinion is worth about zero....give or take a few cents.
Best correlation imo for speed is the standing broad jump and/or box jump. Applying this a bit, I know guys that can squat a metric crap ton and they ain’t fast and they certainly are not setting records on a box jump or broad jump. Conversely, I see kids that can’t squat a ton, but they can box jump out of the gym....they are all fast. (Seemingly)
Certainly, core strength, hip mobility and probably other items dictate speed as well. That other little thing called genetics may have a role as well.
I’ll stop now or I’ll be competing with the SD ball coach for most words in a post. (I enjoy his posts, but I don’t want to be picked on the first day I decide to post)
Be curious to hear Coach Duval’s opinion on that. Anyway, can we get him to post on here to help out us curious fans? I’d pay the 20.00.

***’s take would be cool to hear as well. Actually, anyone’s take is interesting.
Click to expand...

You definitely make sense about ways to measure speed. Guys that can broad jump can usually do things that the rest of us can't imagine being athletic enough to even try.

Different positions probably need different approaches. I am probably ok with OL squatting tree trunks, though.
 

SSM said:
Okay, added to my skills, starting a post.

I've always found the discussions on our S&C staff to be quite entertaining all the way back to Dobson, Mark P and now Duval. To get this started and prod *** into more details (kidding) I'll start off with the 1/2 or 1/4 or 3/4 squat -- basically not a full range of motion.

The theory, as I understand it, is that these motions can be beneficial as long as full range squats are also done in training. The idea is that they can help build strength and size (have not seen speed mentioned but maybe speed too) because the weight can increase. Many have commented, somewhat negatively or at least sarcastically, about the video posts of guys suddenly squatting massive amounts of weights. Since we are in a forum, made up of opinions, I'll give an opinion. I've never been a fan of 1/2 anything. Full range of motion was always first and foremost. However, it appears there is at least some evidence that it can be beneficial to athletes. I'd probably side with using Bands, full range of motion and speed lifts, to create speed and power, but truth is, I don't know if 1/2 reps can do the same thing.

2nd topic that I seem to recall is the number of injuries we have endured with our freshman. I think somewhere in a thread, *** commented on I believe the Stanford S&C spending time "fixing" or assessing the functional movements of his incoming freshman. Basically, he fixes them before he loads weight so to speak. I'd agree that is a smart way to do things, loading dysfunction generally means injury is likely. My question is this, does Duval and company do a similar assessment and "fix period" before weights are added? I have no idea of knowing, I just assume that he does. I seriously doubt that he just ignores any dysfunction and pushes them into the deep end day 1.

3rd -- Not that we have any real need or right to know, but wouldn't it be ideal to publish certain speed, power, size, agility metrics each year for validation, for competition, etc? I mean, if we are turning 4.5 guys into 4.7 guys, that is a problem, even if they can now squat 700lbs. (generally referencing skill positions). Now, if we are turning 4.6 guys into 4.4 guys, I'd be posting and publishing those results all day long. I am not down on Duval and Co, but the one thing that seemed to me is that a number of guys looked slower during year 2. Mo Berry being one. His mobility and speed looked to have diminished. Could totally just be perception as I loved MB....I don't know, just seemed to jump out at me last year. The second example (again, who knows if this comment was right) was L. Jackson. I seem to remember somebody saying he had verified 4.4 speed as an incoming freshman and then ran 4.6 something at the combine. Not saying that is this S&C's doing, but that would be cause for concern.

4th -- I saw a comment some time ago from *** about loving the way that Luke M and brothers train. What are they doing and what do you like? I believe you said he would come back faster than ever. I'm really fascinated to know what it is you like as I have no way of knowing what he and his brothers do.

Again, I respect the fact that you probably withhold information because it doesn't need to leave the Husker walls, but anything you care to share would be interesting and thank you for contributing to this board. Your comments cause me to check this site all the time and led to me signing up for the COVID special. Which, by the way, Mr. Max, I seemingly can't figure out how to pay the $20.00. I will pay it as I don't need the COVID relief, but that was a very nice gesture on your part. However, I apparently need a little help although my skills are seemingly progressing quickly.
Click to expand...
Alright, i'll get into it a little. I really struggle with these threads, because people call me out for "talking out of both sides of my mouth" anyway. And in the case of our S&C, they're probably right. I see some flaws with what we do, but the Cornhuskers are my team. So am I going to sit here and say that we are screwed and what we are doing isn't close to correct? I'm not going there, but I will bring up some things that have been brought to my attention and things I don't agree with. I want to preface this though, if you get 100 strength coaches in a room, you'll get 100 ideas on how to do things. There's really not a perfect way to do things yet.

I'll start with something we have a lot of success with.... putting on weight. HuskerPower is basically a body builders workout where you put on a ton of mass and do the circuit workout. It starts with the back squat to increase testosterone throughout the circuit to naturally get the body kicking out what it needs to grow its muscles. This is primarily what we have built our program around. It makes sense, because rarely are you getting the 310 pound offensive or defensive linemen that is FBS/Power5 ready. Alabama is, but we aren't. And if any of you were at the 2018 coaches clinic where our coaches spoke, this is where my first worry happened. "There's this new term 'functional' that people are using. If you coaches stayed with HuskerPower from the 90s, you didn't set your program back at all. That's still the gold standard." The older coaches in the audience nodded with approval as if they took a viagra pill. They knew Nebraska football had changed something, and they were able to then go back to what they knew. But for me and a few guys, it was tough to digest, because we were being told that HuskerPower was the first thing in the history of earth that got it right the very first time it was created.

But when you take a deeper dive, is putting on weight always good? I can't find the thread, but remember everyone in July 2019 posting the pic of Martinez at the road race and talking about his "gains"? We couldn't get over what it was going to be like having him run over people at his new size. I tried to insert myself to slow the talk down, but at the same time you don't want to extinguish positive thoughts and messages. But fast-forward to the 2019 season, and was our QB more explosive? Was he faster? And you saw it across the board with our linemen in space, or the regression of some linebackers. Which leads me the point of the game isn't the 90s and in a phone booth anymore, it's being spread out and speed/athleticism is key. So again, there's been some advancements.

Now you have your teams like Wisconsin, etc., but they still defensively need to be able to stop the spread. So let me tell you where I worry a bit with what we are doing, with where football is heading, and how McCaffrey trains that you asked about.

I've read the book that he models his training after, it quite literally states that you should get rid of squatting. Now, I wouldn't do that, squatting is pretty important for some things. But it's a fundamental difference between the #1 lift we focus on, and what sprinters/McCaffrey focus on. For the most part, McCaffrey doesn't squat except for an occasional 1/4 box squat, it's almost all hex bar deadlifts and unilateral TRAINING. (I put in bold for you to remember later). What his book states, is that bodybuilding is not about actual strength and rhythmic reflexes, it's not about muscles working together, it's actually about growing muscles as much as you can. You don't have to worry about them working well together, because bodybuilding is designed for you to look good standing for an hour on stage (or in my case tipping back beers on the beach).

So how does that relate to us? If you have imbalances, and are just creating muscle gain, you are widening the gap of those muscles working in synergy, which gives you injuries. I think injuries have been a huge issue for us these first two years.

But let's go back to the word I bolded, TRAINING. For the most part, you are either training or you are exercising. McCaffrey talks about 5 minutes rest in between his sets, not doing more than 5 reps in season. Nebraska goes 30 seconds between reps in their circuit workout, or 10 reps of 800 or 900 pounds on the bar. It crushes your CNS (bolded for later talk). McCaffrey and his trainer talk about how the workouts take longer, but they are less taxing and his body performs better on the field. He talks about how he made the classic mistake of overtraining, if he wasn't feeling dead after his workout he took that as someone outworking him. He found out when he crushed his body all week, he was slower when it mattered most. He was exercising, he wasn't training to be the best NFL RB he could. He has a comment of "this may come off wrong, but I was working too hard and it was having a negative impact on my performance." Here, we were celebrating "having puke buckets".



Those are just a few of the things I struggle with. We put too much weight on guys, wreck their CNS, and the high weight high rep squats at limited range of motion are creating unathletic players in the open field, IMO. I don't know what changed, and i've told this story before, but we went to a smaller college where a buddy had a cousin. One of his friends looked at a Nebraska DL and goes "what makes you guys just **** on everyone." The player looked at him and I am not lying, went down to touch his toes and his elbows almost hit the ground he was so flexible. We've lost a bit of that. We look stiff and unable to react in open spaces. I'll just go ahead and put this out there, I don't think you can combine HuskerPower with Oregon speed offenses. Oregon had a track coach getting their guys fast, we have an outwork your opponent get jacked strength coach. That wasn't a negative, i'm just saying how do you combine those two things? There's a place for both things in football, but I just don't know how you can reach your max potential if you try to do both things. One focuses on muscle gain, Oregon and now Alabama focus on speed training and getting guys as fast as possible. There's a reason Usain Bolt was the fastest to ever do it, but looks like he really doesn't lift at all.

I'm just going to go one more negative thing and i'm not trying to be a prick here, but it was brought up to me by someone that had played with our strength staff at a previous stop, and I spoke with them roughly a month ago. He knew I was a Nebraska guy and asked how I thought things were going. Told him what I say on here... "we will get where we want, Frost won't let us be mediocre long, but we definitely should have been to a bowl game last year. We underachieved." The guy shook his head but had had a few pops so he wasn't going to let it slide. "Ya, you're lucky you have Frost. I think 2019 was your strength coaches 8th losing season out of 10 tries." That was a crazy stat I had to fact-check. He went on to say "there's a reason he's only been recommended or hired by old Nebraska guys, a lot has changed since then. The teams you are losing to are getting their guys hired away to CFP teams. Indiana doesn't get better players than Nebraska. But they are trained better. Watch to see what Alabama does the next few years with those coaches."

I don't mean to go so negative there, but 8 losing seasons out of 10 is a crazy stat. Our biggest issue IMO is lack of athleticism. With Covid, guys were running hills and doing body weight or makeshift weight room workouts on their own, for the most part. I think that's going to be huge. You see some of these guys and they can't even turn to talk to you they've gotten so big. Guys like Ben Stille and Matt Farniok are plenty big, time to get them athletic and mobile which we have been doing the past few months. I think that is really going to help us in the long run. I just really struggle with how we've looked. How did Colorado with a strength staff and football coaches only there for 2 games beat us? We could have 95% of the players on Indiana and Purdue if we offer them a scholarship, but they beat us.

All of that said, we are going to get there. 7 wins for sure this year. I like what we are doing and our staff definitely took a look in the mirror after 2019. It didn't go the way the coaches or players wanted it to. And it wasn't from lack of effort.

EDIT: I see I forgot about 1/4 squat. Definitely some benefits. I would use it a couple weeks before combine or testing as it will artificially inflate some of your numbers and help you test better. But if you build a program around it, we go back to imbalances. Because it will certainly boost testosterone and build muscle, but all of the angles you are cutting out your muscles aren't being trained while missing it.
 
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