Under center vs shot gun

[Huskerthom]

i won't disagree that chip has taken things from meyers, or that meyers has taken things from tom. and of course, its well documented that scott has taken lessons from chip... so how the hell come frost's offense has no resemblance to toms?

Are you talking resemblence of blocking schemes or resemblence of results?

For the record SF offense so far looks nothing like Walsh either in results or scheme.

 

[HuskerRef]

You don't see any resemblance?

Don't want to assume what @70county means here, but I think I kind of see what he means. If Frost and company had been able to develop consistently great or even above average o-line play I think the resemblance to what TO and Chip Kelly did would be more apparent.

 

[goodnterribles]

Don't want to assume what @70county means here, but I think I kind of see what he means. If Frost and company had been able to develop consistently great or even above average o-line play I think the resemblance to what TO and Chip Kelly did would be more apparent.

Absolutely, the execution and success has not been there. But Frost's offense is definitely a modern variation of what TO ran.

 

[MHKHusker]

There's just so much more you can do with a QB in the shotgun rather than under center. For a RB, there can easily be play designs where the OL blocks straight forward and the back can run straight and not have to get horizontal, however, there's often times where getting horizontal is necessary. When you're trying to run zone reads, the line gets horizontal and so does the back. This is where cutback lanes and creases are to be found by the RB. Not saying that this can't be done under center, but it also gives you the ability to read the end and have the QB keep it for himself and either tuck it and run or make a throw. This has to be done quickly so the OL doesn't get too far down field and I think from under center it may take too long to make a read and get a throw off. Also, the shotgun has several formations you can run out of to either run the ball up the middle or do zone reads. You can run horizontal zone reads where you read the end, and you can run reads up the middle on the nose guard or 3-tech. There's just so many options out of the shotgun that I would prefer to always be in it, including on the goal-line

 

[TFrazier]

There's just so much more you can do with a QB in the shotgun rather than under center. For a RB, there can easily be play designs where the OL blocks straight forward and the back can run straight and not have to get horizontal, however, there's often times where getting horizontal is necessary. When you're trying to run zone reads, the line gets horizontal and so does the back. This is where cutback lanes and creases are to be found by the RB. Not saying that this can't be done under center, but it also gives you the ability to read the end and have the QB keep it for himself and either tuck it and run or make a throw. This has to be done quickly so the OL doesn't get too far down field and I think from under center it may take too long to make a read and get a throw off. Also, the shotgun has several formations you can run out of to either run the ball up the middle or do zone reads. You can run horizontal zone reads where you read the end, and you can run reads up the middle on the nose guard or 3-tech. There's just so many options out of the shotgun that I would prefer to always be in it, including on the goal-line

I agree with most of your post. There are quite a few options being in the shotgun.

I think many would agree that being in the shotgun on or very near the goal line has been one of the mistakes that have Nebraska fans shaking their heads the last few years.

 

[Huskerthom]

There's just so much more you can do with a QB in the shotgun rather than under center. For a RB, there can easily be play designs where the OL blocks straight forward and the back can run straight and not have to get horizontal, however, there's often times where getting horizontal is necessary. When you're trying to run zone reads, the line gets horizontal and so does the back. This is where cutback lanes and creases are to be found by the RB. Not saying that this can't be done under center, but it also gives you the ability to read the end and have the QB keep it for himself and either tuck it and run or make a throw. This has to be done quickly so the OL doesn't get too far down field and I think from under center it may take too long to make a read and get a throw off. Also, the shotgun has several formations you can run out of to either run the ball up the middle or do zone reads. You can run horizontal zone reads where you read the end, and you can run reads up the middle on the nose guard or 3-tech. There's just so many options out of the shotgun that I would prefer to always be in it, including on the goal-line

Thank you. This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for. Not saying I agree just glad to see a really solid post.

 

[NUinID]

It’s really not a question of what is better or worse. There is advantages and disadvantages to either thing.

The quarterback definitely sees things better from the shotgun and it has an advantage in the passing game.

Under center is better at short yardage and running downhill. IMO it is also better at doing backfield actions.

To be effective as an offense I think you need to be able to do both.

 

[MHKHusker]

I agree with most of your post. There are quite a few options being in the shotgun.

I think many would agree that being in the shotgun on or very near the goal line has been one of the mistakes that have Nebraska fans shaking their heads the last few years.

I just like it because it keeps the defense guessing. Under center just kind of screams run up the middle, and our OL hasn't stepped up to the plate down there recently. Hopefully it's better next year

 

[MHKHusker]

Thank you. This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for. Not saying I agree just glad to see a really solid post.

NP, seen some other good discussions about it too. It's just the style Frost and co. like and it's understandable if you have the right personnel and run it mistake free.

 

[Lavaman]

The question I am asking from a RB PERSPECTIVE. is it better for the RB if the QB is undercenter. Allowing him to run straight forward without taking a side step first.

As a RB, I always preferred the QB under center

 

[70county]

You don't see any resemblance?

well there are 11 guys on the field most of the time. inaccurate mobile passers, usually small inconsistent pass receivers that are better than average blockers, very similar production out of the TE (throwing it 40 times a game as tom got in about 15 per), about the same level pass blocking....

yes aside from the hyperbole there are some similarities. but frosts offense resembles 75% of the offenses run in college football these days more than it does toms. i get it, rule changes, evolution, that's the game today.... rabble rabble rabble. yet somehow we still get trampled by iowa, Wisconsin, minnesota, Illinois, Indiana. as much as people love to remember the option play under osborne, the power game is what set them apart, and nebraska has none of that.

scott could use the exact same playbook he left with after the Orange Bowl beat down of the might volunteers and the results would be a completely different product. every coach alive has stolen stuff from other coaches. HOF coach joe gibbs bread and butter, the counter trey, was taken from tom osborne. bill walsh had stuff he took from osborne as well. that don't make there offenses the same. osborne not 1 time had a QB lead his team in rushing (gdowski maybe?) solich did. in fact Frank did have the same play book and it also was a completely different offense. the guy running the show has more to do with it than the play book or scheme, regardless of whom it was based on. by the time frank left, it was jammal run left, jammal run right, jammal on the draw/scramble....punt. if you want to believe scott ran an updated version of nebraskas play book, its franks not toms. in a sense, every football coach in america has the same infinite playbook, they all simple emphasis different things from it.

it doesn't matter where you line up, it matters where you are going. shotgun/under center ... doesn't matter. what matters is what your line is doing? are they backing up, on there heals, retreating? or are they moving forward. i believe it can be done from the shotgun or under center and was lead to believe that frost was the one that was going to bring it to us. it hasn't happened. maybe im wrong that there is an unwritten rule that says your line has to be soft as hell if the QB is not under center. only so much time for practice at the college levels, with the athletes we get, perhaps its not achievable. i simply believe that we are never going to have the level of recruiting as an alabama, georgia, LSU so we are not going to be trotting out a seasoned 5* QB every year so maybe a QB centric offense is not the way to go. the teams trembling us year in year out tend to agree.

https://americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/Counter_trey
"Many teams have run this play, but it first became well-known when run by the Washington Redskins in the 1980s and the early 1990s, which they modeled from the Nebraska Cornhuskers."

 

[70county]

This has to be done quickly so the OL doesn't get too far down field and I think from under center it may take too long to make a read and get a throw off.

doesn't the defense also have to make reads and react? as a counter argument, i would think the longer the offense can hold the defense (say the LB committing to the ran on a stretch/PA) the farther they are goin to be out of position. not sure of the ruling regarding the 3 yd downfield and/or pass behind LOS for linemen as i believe it still varies from college to NFL. that has been one of the bigger differences in RPO game at the pro level.
i would thing its pretty clear the shotgun has benefited the passing game and we all know the game as a whole is going that way. the only real question in my opinion is how much does it hinder the run game. and there is plenty of evidence on both sides of that now that the rest of the football world has caught up to the numbers game with running the QB.

 

[MHKHusker]

doesn't the defense also have to make reads and react? as a counter argument, i would think the longer the offense can hold the defense (say the LB committing to the ran on a stretch/PA) the farther they are goin to be out of position. not sure of the ruling regarding the 3 yd downfield and/or pass behind LOS for linemen as i believe it still varies from college to NFL. that has been one of the bigger differences in RPO game at the pro level.
i would thing its pretty clear the shotgun has benefited the passing game and we all know the game as a whole is going that way. the only real question in my opinion is how much does it hinder the run game. and there is plenty of evidence on both sides of that now that the rest of the football world has caught up to the numbers game with running the QB.

I think if you have a very balanced attack, as in, you pass the ball just as effectively as you run, the shotgun is the best for you because being able to throw well opens up the run, regardless of formation. If you’re one dimensional, it doesn’t matter if you run the I, the wishbone, the shotgun, the 11 man Maryland i, whatever, running the ball will be tough. It all starts up front, I don’t think the shotgun hinders it IMO

 

[goodnterribles]

well there are 11 guys on the field most of the time. inaccurate mobile passers, usually small inconsistent pass receivers that are better than average blockers, very similar production out of the TE (throwing it 40 times a game as tom got in about 15 per), about the same level pass blocking....

yes aside from the hyperbole there are some similarities. but frosts offense resembles 75% of the offenses run in college football these days more than it does toms. i get it, rule changes, evolution, that's the game today.... rabble rabble rabble. yet somehow we still get trampled by iowa, Wisconsin, minnesota, Illinois, Indiana. as much as people love to remember the option play under osborne, the power game is what set them apart, and nebraska has none of that.

scott could use the exact same playbook he left with after the Orange Bowl beat down of the might volunteers and the results would be a completely different product. every coach alive has stolen stuff from other coaches. HOF coach joe gibbs bread and butter, the counter trey, was taken from tom osborne. bill walsh had stuff he took from osborne as well. that don't make there offenses the same. osborne not 1 time had a QB lead his team in rushing (gdowski maybe?) solich did. in fact Frank did have the same play book and it also was a completely different offense. the guy running the show has more to do with it than the play book or scheme, regardless of whom it was based on. by the time frank left, it was jammal run left, jammal run right, jammal on the draw/scramble....punt. if you want to believe scott ran an updated version of nebraskas play book, its franks not toms. in a sense, every football coach in america has the same infinite playbook, they all simple emphasis different things from it.

it doesn't matter where you line up, it matters where you are going. shotgun/under center ... doesn't matter. what matters is what your line is doing? are they backing up, on there heals, retreating? or are they moving forward. i believe it can be done from the shotgun or under center and was lead to believe that frost was the one that was going to bring it to us. it hasn't happened. maybe im wrong that there is an unwritten rule that says your line has to be soft as hell if the QB is not under center. only so much time for practice at the college levels, with the athletes we get, perhaps its not achievable. i simply believe that we are never going to have the level of recruiting as an alabama, georgia, LSU so we are not going to be trotting out a seasoned 5* QB every year so maybe a QB centric offense is not the way to go. the teams trembling us year in year out tend to agree.

https://americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/Counter_trey
"Many teams have run this play, but it first became well-known when run by the Washington Redskins in the 1980s and the early 1990s, which they modeled from the Nebraska Cornhuskers."

If that offense was the secret to winning, everyone would run it. It's not anymore, so they don't. Maybe it comes back around in a different iteration, I don't know. But there's a reason Nick Saban, with more talent than anyone in the country, switched from a power Pro style offense to more of a spread.

 

[Cisco]

If that offense was the secret to winning, everyone would run it. It's not anymore, so they don't. Maybe it comes back around in a different iteration, I don't know. But there's a reason Nick Saban, with more talent than anyone in the country, switched from a power Pro style offense to more of a spread.

I would love to see a more physical offense than we have seen since Solich left but it's interesting that even some of the coaches who were extremely well versed in what most see as our classic offense, though it continually evolved, chose to not run it when they could have.

Gill had a short stint under Callahan and was in a non coaching NFL role in the NFL after Solich was let go. When running his own program he ran a pro style offense with a lot of WCO influence.

Solich himself, though his kept a prominent run game certainly went away from it too.