NIL, Unionization, copyright law, etc.

[Cornhuskers7]

This whole thing has turned into a huge mess. Schools like Dartmouth will just drop sports to avoid dealing with it. In the long run more athletes will suffer from no scholarship/college degree, than will benefit. If I was in charge at Dartmouth I'd just drop any sport that wanted to unionize, screw them. That team costs the University $ anyway.

You are right. There is a breaking point for all of these schools, and that breaking point is a lot lower the smaller you get in school.

 

[Hville]

You are right, it only works if you do it on a large enough scale that everyone is involved. Dartmouth football trying to negotiate a CBA would do nothing for anyone, including those players.

Something is going to have to give somewhere. There are definitely Title IX conflicts with a pro model. The issue is there are too many conflicting things that are piling up that something has to change somewhere. One thing I've heard proposed is that college football would have schools essentially license their branding to the pros. Effectively, college football would no longer be under the purview of college athletics departments, but would just be school branded/sponsored.

If that happens, it probably means the death of a lot of other sports at these big schools. It's why there needs to be serious sit down discussions with people in power to determine what is the best course of action for all parties and how do we best get there. It is a very complex problem and the potential solutions have a lot of potential repercussions.

It wouldn't surprise me if this isn't already a sit down going on. SEC and B1G already announced one and more likely this is the transparent version because I'm guessing there have been backroom discussions for years.

My biggest question for anyone is WHY. Is the NIL system really a problem worth creating bigger problems? Everyone thinking something has to be fixed and every one of them it appears the fix is worse than the problem. Especially diving headfirst into an employee/Union model. That does zero to change NIL. They can't restrict athletes, whether employees or students from making money off their own name, image and likeness. Now they can control certain products from being advertised on the field such as banned substances. Maybe alcohol and smoking, gambling. They can probably even ban them from wearing the NIKE logo if we have a Addidas contract. It's very questionable whether they would be able to prevent them from wearing a NIKE shoe.

 

[Hville]

This whole thing has turned into a huge mess. Schools like Dartmouth will just drop sports to avoid dealing with it. In the long run more athletes will suffer from no scholarship/college degree, than will benefit. If I was in charge at Dartmouth I'd just drop any sport that wanted to unionize, screw them. That team costs the University $ anyway.

absolutely agree.

 

[EastOfEden]

I appreciate the comments on this complicated issue. I practiced for 60 years in NYC and DC, generally representing larger institutions. I've also self published a number of books, some fiction, some non-fiction, and have dutifully registered a copyright on all of them. Some I had large publishers publish. I thought I had a general feel for the issues.

But having just finished the book I mentioned earlier (Who Owns This Sentence) I realize I am way behind the developments in copyright and related Intellectual property law. That's why I am really curious to see what courts might have to say about NIL and the rights of the employee the union and the university (let alone the collectives and legal issues such as Title IX) in this situation.

I do not assume the individuals will be the winner.

 

[NU_Alum]

This whole thing has turned into a huge mess. Schools like Dartmouth will just drop sports to avoid dealing with it. In the long run more athletes will suffer from no scholarship/college degree, than will benefit. If I was in charge at Dartmouth I'd just drop any sport that wanted to unionize, screw them. That team costs the University $ anyway.

Yep. I've said this for over a year now. Not everyone understands this though.

 

[Hville]

Yep. I've said this for over a year now. Not everyone understands this though.

Interesting that you say that. Bojo has just got done stating that schools will drop sports due to the unionization and how much of a mess it will be. And you have been on here advocating the adoption of athletes as employees so that they can unionize and avoid NIL. You are right. Not everyone understands.

 

[NU_Alum]

A CBA is nowhere practical at this point given its still a college game. Too broad in the number of teams and......unlike the pro teams........no single entity to negotiate with. They would literally have to negotiate a contract with each school. The Universitities have zero desire to get into the game of employees and pay because they lose the attraction of donations and the burden of still meeting Title IX rules with woman sports. As long as that is required there would be no reason for many of the local union negotiations to go after the "profit sharing model" of most professional programs as the money isn't there yet.

Given that there is more NIL money available than there is "post Title IX profits", you won't see players attracted to joining a union. Especially if, as some are trying to say, they can use the Union negotiations to do away with NIL. It just isn't going to happen. The guys making millions off NIL will not join the Union and the Unions have no right to limit their ability to make money off their name, image and likeness. So basically we are back to ground zero thinking unionization will solve the Nil equalization issue.

You don't think there will be a single entity to negotiate with? The NCAA will be replaced for the P2 conferences and they'll be and to negotiate.

I don't know that a union makes sense or will be welcomed, just saying there will be an entity to negotiate with.

Only a few players make millions, most make little to nothing. In a CBA situation, the masses would make more than they are now but the minority (high earners now) could make less depending on the cba.

 

[Hville]

You don't think there will be a single entity to negotiate with? The NCAA will be replaced for the P2 conferences and they'll be and to negotiate.

I don't know that a union makes sense or will be welcomed, just saying there will be an entity to negotiate with.

Only a few players make millions, most make little to nothing. In a CBA situation, the masses would make more than they are now but the minority (high earners now) could make less depending on the cba.

I'm not a beleiver that any entity that replaces the NCAA........assuming they are even replaced.......will have any authority to negotiate wages and/or Nil rules. Each individual University is likely to control that. State laws could have so many compounding conditions. Since most of these are state institutions they will even have different employment rules and union rules.

As for only a few make millions. That is the point. Those few aren't going to give up their rights to NIL. That appears to be the players that everyone has a problem with. The guys that can command high dollar and thus be the subject of pay for play and poaching. If fans want to argue that making employees out of them will solve any of the problems Id like a single fan to explain to me how it will legally work. The key being legally without violating NIL rules. You simply can't prevent or confine Quinn Ewers from making million dollar deals.

 

[BasilLongfellow]

The Union only arises out of one player getting paid and the rest sacrificing for that player to get paid

How hard ya gonna grind for a millionaire while you’re not getting paid?

 

[Cornhuskers7]

It wouldn't surprise me if this isn't already a sit down going on. SEC and B1G already announced one and more likely this is the transparent version because I'm guessing there have been backroom discussions for years.

My biggest question for anyone is WHY. Is the NIL system really a problem worth creating bigger problems? Everyone thinking something has to be fixed and every one of them it appears the fix is worse than the problem. Especially diving headfirst into an employee/Union model. That does zero to change NIL. They can't restrict athletes, whether employees or students from making money off their own name, image and likeness. Now they can control certain products from being advertised on the field such as banned substances. Maybe alcohol and smoking, gambling. They can probably even ban them from wearing the NIKE logo if we have a Addidas contract. It's very questionable whether they would be able to prevent them from wearing a NIKE shoe.

The part that needs to be controlled is the money that is be funneled from boosters to the athletes. That money isn't NIL in the same way you are referring. That's just people with deep pockets throwing money around to try and make their team the best. Athletes getting endorsement deals with Dr. Pepper, Nike, or something more local is fine. My issue with it is recruiting/transfers coming down to the highest bidder.

Fix that issue and the rest of it is fine.

I've mentioned in other places: NIL isn't bad and transfer portal isn't bad if done correctly. The problem is that it has quickly been manipulated. Men's college basketball is in a very bad place, and a lot of that has to do with the lack of year-to-year continuity on a lot of these teams. The best players run to the NBA after one season. Other guys shuffle around to a different team. It's like pickup basketball where every year is a brand new start. Women's college basketball is becoming more compelling because it actually has names and storylines you can easily recognize.

Football isn't in quite the same place, but it sounds like it could be heading in a similar direction.

 

[NU_Alum]

I'm not a beleiver that any entity that replaces the NCAA........assuming they are even replaced.......will have any authority to negotiate wages and/or Nil rules. Each individual University is likely to control that. State laws could have so many compounding conditions. Since most of these are state institutions they will even have different employment rules and union rules.

As for only a few make millions. That is the point. Those few aren't going to give up their rights to NIL. That appears to be the players that everyone has a problem with. The guys that can command high dollar and thus be the subject of pay for play and poaching. If fans want to argue that making employees out of them will solve any of the problems Id like a single fan to explain to me how it will legally work. The key being legally without violating NIL rules. You simply can't prevent or confine Quinn Ewers from making million dollar deals.

There will be an entity that controls the P2. That's not remotely in question.

I do think they'll try for a union. Probably get it. Will it be successful? Not sure.

 

[HuskerBred]

I’ve said this before — maybe not very coherently — but I think the only way “college” sports survives long-term is if it separates itself from colleges. It is not a natural or functional fit if the players/“students” are getting paid. NIL, union employees, whatever. It cannot endure. The rich will eat the poor. If pre-NFL football (which is what college football should be called) has a life it will be within some kind of a club or minor league system. Something where the talent and cash is distributed so every team remains competitive, or can get competitive in an hurry. Drafts. Binding contracts. Payroll caps. And it won’t be tangled up with the fiction of the student-athlete. That’s the endgame for NIL. No real student-athletes. Free agency. Cut your own deal. So if you’re good enough for NIL money it’ll be unrestricted movement with no limits for players or teams. And no compensation to teams who lose their stars. We’ll have two classes of players to go with two classes of teams/conferences. And the NIL guys will continue to concentrate on the teams with the most cash and resources. And so on. And those teams will crush the other teams. And so on. And then we have 30 or 40 teams where all the 4/5 star athletes play. And those teams are in major media markets and propped up by serious alumni funding, etc. And I don’t know what the other guys do — probably drop football because it’s expensive and will tank the other sports without the tv and other money. I give the college football I recognize about another 10 years.

 

[Cornhuskers7]

I'm not a beleiver that any entity that replaces the NCAA........assuming they are even replaced.......will have any authority to negotiate wages and/or Nil rules. Each individual University is likely to control that. State laws could have so many compounding conditions. Since most of these are state institutions they will even have different employment rules and union rules.

As for only a few make millions. That is the point. Those few aren't going to give up their rights to NIL. That appears to be the players that everyone has a problem with. The guys that can command high dollar and thus be the subject of pay for play and poaching. If fans want to argue that making employees out of them will solve any of the problems Id like a single fan to explain to me how it will legally work. The key being legally without violating NIL rules. You simply can't prevent or confine Quinn Ewers from making million dollar deals.

A lot of this is going to be driven by how fair the universities are in determining pay and other labor rules. It is like with any other business, if people don't feel like they are being treated fairly, they are going to push back. While right out the gate they might not move to a union, I wouldn't be shocked if a college sports union quickly springs up, especially considering there are unions in other professional sports.

I don't think that many of us believe that making players employees is going to solve any of the problems that exist. The issue is I think that side of things is coming whether we like it or not. Not enough has been done or is being done to ensure these players aren't going to get categorized as employees. So, if we are headed that way and pay for play is going to be on the table, we might as well use it as an opportunity to fix the rest of the problems, rather than continue to let things run amuck.

 

[Cornhuskers7]

Legislation is trying to get passed on antitrust protection on certain regulations by Congress. That said, who knows if it will be something that will actually get passed into law. In Tennessee, a judge ruled that NIL could be used to recruit (pay-for-play) and blocked the NCAA from being able to enforce any rules contrary to that in the State.

Effectively, something is going to have to give. Either the government is going to step in and find a way to protect the college sports model and provide a certain level of stable foundation, the conferences will take it upon themselves to come together and do that, or things will continue to spin into chaos.

There are a lot of egos at play. It will be interesting to see where this ends up, and hopefully a way will be found to protect college sports as a whole.

 

[Huskerfan69]

This is a good place for this post..

You can "continue as guest" to watch the video. it is only about a minute and a half long. Nick Saban on why he decided to retire