[History-related] -- Why did Roger Craig seem to fit the NFL better than Mike Rozier?

[MonagHusker]

Really great replies to my initial question.

I was thinking how I probably see the USFL as potentially more positive as it seemed to springboard a couple careers -- then again a number of young players would have been high NFL draft picks (Walker, Rozier, Young, etc.) -- although it "steals" some years away from overall stats.

That said, I definitely didn't consider Rozier's case. I knew about the ankle injury, but I never really thought about him going right into the USFL's season not long after the Orange Bowl. After rushing over 270 times for Nebraska from late August through November, he plays in the Orange Bowl and then is playing in mid to late February for the Maulers where he had amassed another 223 carries without probably being fully healed. Had it been the NFL, he has a little more time to recuperate.

Then there is the wear-and-tear of the 33 game 1985 season split between Jacksonville and Houston where he runs another 453 times! So, between August 1983 and December 1985, Rozier carried the ball well over 950 times in actual games with his biggest break coming between the 1984 and 1985 season.

I guess it shouldn't be a wonder for any back, let alone one that might not have treated his body the best to break down a little after all of that.

 

[MonagHusker]

I had responded later last night and there were a few things I was curious about – namely some of the other RBs from the draft class of 1984 and the comparison of carries (regular season only from August 1983 through December 1985). It doesn’t appear to be a really deep class with Rozier and Albert Bentley being 1st round USFL selections, and Greg Bell being the only 1st round NFL selection –

USFL & NFL

Mike Rozier -- 951 carries (college ‘83 – 275 // USFL ’84 -- 223 & ’85 – 320 // NFL ‘85 – 133)

Albert Bentley -- 407 carries (college ‘83 – 144 // USFL ’84 -- 18 & ’85 – 191 // NFL ‘85 – 54)


NFL Only

Greg Bell – 522 carries (college ‘83 – 37 // NFL ’84 – 262 & ’85 – 223)

Alfred Anderson – 482 carries (college ‘ 83 – 231 // NFL ’84 – 201 & ’85 -- 50)

Herman Heard – 329+ carries ( college ‘83 --??? // NFL ’84 – 165 & ’85 – 164)

Stanford Jennings – 300 carries (college ‘83 – 190 // NFL ’84 – 79 & ’85 – 31)

Tyrone Anthony – 221 carries (college ‘ 83 – 184 // NFL ’84 – 20 & ’85 -- 17)


USFL Only

Buford Jordan – 589 carries ( college ’83 – 210 // USFL ’84 – 214 & ’85 – 165)

Kevin Nelson – 507 carries ( college ’83 – 188 // USFL ’84 – 216 & ’85 – 103)


By comparison here was Roger Craig (Aug ’82 through December ’84) –

Roger Craig – 450 carries (college ‘83 – 119 // NFL ’83 – 176 & ’84 – 155)


It looks like for this same period for just NFL players, Eric Dickerson and Walter Payton had more carries.


(I didn’t spend much time with college players, but it looked like maybe Herschel Walker – interesting for the Heisman/USFL/NFL ties -- was the only back historically to have more carries over three collegiate seasons than the 951 carry Rozier benchmark I was looking at.)

 

[KleinTxHusker]

One thing that really hasn't been pointed out is they were very different size wise, style, and importantly speed.

Craig was a very lanky, long legged runner. Rozier was squat and closer to the ground. While Rozier was not slow, he wasn't as fast as the very top tier of guys with similar styles like Billy Sims or Barry Sanders. Craig might not beat Rozier for the first step or so, but once he was moving and hit stride, he was faster than Rozier. You put the two in a 100 yard dash, Craig would win hands down. He'd make up any distance and pass him easily. Craig was more of a Eric Dickerson, Marcus Allen, OJ Simpson style runner.

As others have pointed out Craig played for Bill Walsh. Rozier played for... Jerry Glanville... Glanville was a bizarre coach, and one who of course put defense first. Glanville liked Rozier and the Oilers had some decent teams as they rebuilt in the late 1980's. But they were moving to the run and shoot and they weren't really throwing to running backs (they ditched the fullback and ran a lot of four wide receiver sets). Who was the top Oiler back after Rozier left (with Glanville to Atlanta)? Allen Pinkett... Pinkett had some respectable years, but he wasn't a world beater.

 

[Florida Husker]

I wonder what may have been with Joe Cribbs of the Buffalo Bills had he not left for the USFL to play a pair of seasons (Spring of '84 and '85), and take the extra punishment, while only missing the 1984 season in the NFL. Cribbs was never the same once he returned from the USFL. Incidentally, he was brought into San Francisco to replace Wendell Tyler in the same backfield as Roger Craig.


Rushing:
Year Team No. Yds Avg Long TDs
1980 NFL Buffalo 306 1185 3.9 48 11
1981 NFL Buffalo 257 1097 4.3 35 3
1982 NFL Buffalo 134 633 4.7 62 3
1983 NFL Buffalo 263 1131 4.3 45 3
1984 USFL Birmingham 297 1467 4.9 52 8
1985 USFL Birmingham 267 1047 3.9 28 7
1985 NFL Buffalo 122 399 3.3 16 1
1986 NFL San Francisco 152 590 3.9 19 5
1987 NFL San Francisco 70 300 4.3 20 1
1988 NFL Miami 5 21 4.2 11 0

Midseason 1987, Walsh moved Craig from FB to RB and inserted Tom Rathman into the starting lineup at FB and the rest was history.

 

[Middle-aged_Ball_Coach]

About everything else has been said except that nobody has defended Rozier's ability to catch the ball. Osborne had been asked in an interview in the late 80s about why he hadn't thrown the ball more to Craig and Rathman, and he added to the question by saying that they should have included Rozier, too, as all three were excellent pass-catchers. Osborne even told Walsh that about Craig and Rathman when Walsh was considering drafting them. Rozier did catch passes for the Oilers, including quite a few swing passes when they morphed into a Run & Shoot. He was a lot more versatile than what you'd gather by the way everyone has summarized the two RBs.

From my perspective, the bottom line is that Rozier would have been the better of the backs if he had gone to S.F. instead of Craig. Both were uber-talented.

In case you're curious about what Osborne said, he pointed out that his offense used to do a lot of similar sorts of plays to get Johnny Rodgers the ball in the flats with swing passes, etc., and that those plays--exactly as Bill Walsh had said--were simple, safe pass plays that were designed to take the same role as running the ball. Osborne said that he still ran those sorts of plays from time to time, but over the years they had had more success running the ball at the edge rather than throwing to a RB to accomplish the same. I thought it was a solid answer. Still do.

Just to open another old wound, the 2-point conversion attempt against Miami in the '84 Orange Bowl could have come directly out of Bill Walsh's playbook. I wish that it had stayed there.

 

[goodnterribles]

roziers career started off on the wrong foot... specifically the injured ankle which he went down with in the 1984 orange bowl. that injury lingered into his first season in the USFL and from there it was poor teams in the Pittsburgh maulers, to the jacksonville bulls. neither team was worth a damn and infact his coach in jacksonville (lindy infante) had little interest in running the football. when the usfl folded mike headed to the houston oilers, another garbage franchise and played his second season of the year in the fall of 1985 (played for the bulls in the spring, rushing for 1300+) As houston improved, (warren moon came down from canada) mike put together a pair of pro bowl and 1000 yard season (technically just short of 1000 yards during strike shortened 1987) as the oilers moved to the run and shoot mike was no longer a great fit. atlanta here we come....

now, I'm not saying that mike was a world beater by any means, but he made career mistakes by going the USFL route, dealt with injuries before and through out is pro career and most importantly was never in a good situation. here's a list of his professional head coaches...
1984 - joe pendry
1984 - ellis rainsberger (interim)
1985 - lindy infante
1985 - hugh campbell
1986 - jerry glanville
1987 - jerry glanville
1988 - jerry glanville
1989 - jerry glanville
1990 - jack pardee
1990 - jerry glanville
1991 - jerry glanville

no shock mikes career peaked during head coaching and team stability. (87-88)

in comparison craig was drafted by a team primed for there second super bowl and lead by bill walsh and joe montana...

on a side note, look at the careers of other usfl RB greats hershel walker, 2 1000 yard season, 2 pro bowls in the nfl. his 3 season in the spring league are forgotten. kelvin bryant, joe cribbs, gary anderson....none of them are remembered by what they accomplished in the usfl and after 2 or 3 of there prime years used up their NFL careers were stunted. quaility running backs over 30 are and have been few and far between. (john riggings, marcus allen who else)

You're really selling Ellis Rainsberger short.

 

[Middle-aged_Ball_Coach]

You're really selling Ellis Rainsberger short.

Don't we all, though?

 

[wcbsas]

From my perspective, the bottom line is that Rozier would have been the better of the backs if he had gone to S.F. instead of Craig. Both were uber-talented.

That made me go .... oooooh not sure I agree with that .... Craig was fortunate to be in a better place than Rozier but the shelf life on Rozier was shorter IMO and a lot of his collegiate success was do to the offensive and system Rozier had in front of him.

 

[Middle-aged_Ball_Coach]

That made me go .... oooooh not sure I agree with that .... Craig was fortunate to be in a better place than Rozier but the shelf life on Rozier was shorter IMO and a lot of his collegiate success was do to the offensive and system Rozier had in front of him.

Agree to disagree then. They had the same system in college, and Rozier beat out Craig, even though Craig was older and had been there first. It's after-the-fact reasoning to then say that it was because the offensive system suited Rozier better when Craig was also highly thought of as a Nebraska I-back. If you're saying that Rozier would not have thrived in Walsh's offensive system, I completely disagree. He had great hands, and he showed it at Houston. We can't know what would have happened, obviously, but I doubt that Osborne would agree.

 

[KleinTxHusker]

About everything else has been said except that nobody has defended Rozier's ability to catch the ball. Osborne had been asked in an interview in the late 80s about why he hadn't thrown the ball more to Craig and Rathman, and he added to the question by saying that they should have included Rozier, too, as all three were excellent pass-catchers. Osborne even told Walsh that about Craig and Rathman when Walsh was considering drafting them. Rozier did catch passes for the Oilers, including quite a few swing passes when they morphed into a Run & Shoot. He was a lot more versatile than what you'd gather by the way everyone has summarized the two RBs.

From my perspective, the bottom line is that Rozier would have been the better of the backs if he had gone to S.F. instead of Craig. Both were uber-talented.

In case you're curious about what Osborne said, he pointed out that his offense used to do a lot of similar sorts of plays to get Johnny Rodgers the ball in the flats with swing passes, etc., and that those plays--exactly as Bill Walsh had said--were simple, safe pass plays that were designed to take the same role as running the ball. Osborne said that he still ran those sorts of plays from time to time, but over the years they had had more success running the ball at the edge rather than throwing to a RB to accomplish the same. I thought it was a solid answer. Still do.

Just to open another old wound, the 2-point conversion attempt against Miami in the '84 Orange Bowl could have come directly out of Bill Walsh's playbook. I wish that it had stayed there.

Very good, and I have to agree that Rozier might be the almost HOF if he had to good fortune to go to the Niners... Part of Craig's good fortune may have been not being a high first round pick and going to the Niners and starting in as Wendall Tyler's fullback.

Regarding the passing to the I-Back (or Full-Back) issues. I was shocked earlier this year, on a thread, when I looked back at Jeff Kinney and Joe Orduna's stats in 1969-1971 period (Orduna was only 1970). TO was throwing to Kinney a big percentage of the time. I kind of knew we threw to him a lot, but the stats surprised me. All I can figure was once we went to a modern option (we ran option plays with Brownson and Tagge) offense, our throwing to the backs became the option pitch. And if we were throwing we were faking to the I-Back a big percentage of the time in those years. And our best option QBs after Ferragamo were faster than Brownson or Tagge (Quinn, Mason and Gill) so we were stretching the perimeter more on the option plays.

I'll never forget, we were happy to get Rozier, but disappointed he didn't qualify. It only took him a year at Coffeyville (easier back in those days) to qualify. But that was still unusual for a NQ. Rozier had played at Coffeyville as a freshman, and was coming in as a true Sophomore. Anyway, the coaches had wanted to redshirt him, as Craig was going into his Junior year, and in the first fall scrimmage he put up something like 240 yards on 12 carries. Very quickly the coaches decided Rozier was too good to redshirt.

To amplify: In NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM was Rozier merely a product of the NU system.

 

[CrabHusker]

To amplify: In NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM was Rozier merely a product of the NU system.

The NU system and offensive line took him from a great player in college to a legendary player in college.

The NU system and offensive line took guys like Craig Johnson look like all conference players.

 

[70county]

One thing that really hasn't been pointed out is they were very different size wise, style, and importantly speed.

Craig was a very lanky, long legged runner. Rozier was squat and closer to the ground. While Rozier was not slow, he wasn't as fast as the very top tier of guys with similar styles like Billy Sims or Barry Sanders. Craig might not beat Rozier for the first step or so, but once he was moving and hit stride, he was faster than Rozier. You put the two in a 100 yard dash, Craig would win hands down. He'd make up any distance and pass him easily. Craig was more of a Eric Dickerson, Marcus Allen, OJ Simpson style runner.

As others have pointed out Craig played for Bill Walsh. Rozier played for... Jerry Glanville... Glanville was a bizarre coach, and one who of course put defense first. Glanville liked Rozier and the Oilers had some decent teams as they rebuilt in the late 1980's. But they were moving to the run and shoot and they weren't really throwing to running backs (they ditched the fullback and ran a lot of four wide receiver sets). Who was the top Oiler back after Rozier left (with Glanville to Atlanta)? Allen Pinkett... Pinkett had some respectable years, but he wasn't a world beater.

lorenzo white