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Locked due to no posts in 60 days. Report 1st post if need unlocked Decoding Nick Saban's surprising diatribe in defense of oversigning

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Red Reign

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At least the press this year is calling out this practice and the SEC in particular....





Over the past year, Saban became the unwitting face of recruiting's hottest topic: oversigning. He's far from the only coach in the country who regularly signs more players than there are available spots on his roster, as my colleague Andy Staples recently documented. But the more national championships a coach wins, the greater the scrutiny, and the likes of The Wall Street Journal began shedding light on Saban's penchant for expending a number of upperclassmen every year to make room for the new kids.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...04/saban-oversigning/index.html#ixzz1D6PibNHq
 
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Well the problem is that the media give passes to certain programs they happen to adore and don't really focus on these kinds of things. Notice how much attention ESPN is giving Charles Jackson (but only one side of it) and ask yourself, if this was Notre Dame, would it have even been mentioned?

Truth is, they (aka National Media) love Nick Saban and Alabama. They are not going to make a big deal of it for as long as they can get away with it. Their problem is, oversigning has become an issue and is now forcing programs like Alabama out in the open.

I will say that oversigning is not in itself evil. Programs need to be allowed a certain amount of flexibility. Players choose to transfer on their own. Players do break rules. There are players who sort of "give up" when they realize they aren't going to make it and just sort of coast and really just try to get a "free ride" out of the system. Coaches need to be able to remove these guys from their program and have the ability to replace them in a timely fashion. Plus the LOIs are signed a full semester before programs know if kids will make it or not. Coaches need to be able to oversign at least a little to protect themselves. Granted, they can try to recruit kids more likely to make it, but still there are so many kids that you just don't know 100%--they could make it but you don't know.

The Big Ten allows for only oversigning of only 3 players. And for each player, I believe an explanation has to be sent to the Big Ten office. I think this is the right approach. I think 3 players is a bit conservative, I'd like to see the number closer to 5 or 6, but the point is the same. There should be some limit on the oversigning at any one time.

The problem is, cheaters are always going to cheat. If you come up with a good rule designed to combat oversigning practices, the cheaters will still come up with ways to circumvent and ESPN will always help them do it as long as they are Notre Dame, USC, Miami, Texas, or one of their other precious darlings. For example, I doubt you would stop teams from being able to remove kids who violate rules (team or society). In fact, the National Media probably applauds the "integrity" of coaches doing this. So, if you come up with a tight oversign rule, the cheaters would just be more aggressive at removing players much earlier in the process. Thus, they aren't oversigning since the players are already gone. No matter how you slice it, people will take advantage of what they can and the National Media will let it slide. Everyone knew USC was cheating, but ESPN was making too much money being the USC Bandwagon Network to say anything about it.

The one way to get these guys isn't through rule changes but through vigilance. The game has a funny way of taking care of itself for the most part. If recruits are better aware of shameful practices by certain coaches and if those practices are given the light of day on ESPN, the cheaters reputations take a hit and their recruiting suffers. I don't like OSU because Gundy yanks scholarships away from kids in his recruiting class every year because he oversigned and didn't have a contingency plan for oversigning (Grayshirting for example). This is bush-league. Yet he gets away with it because no one ever hears about it. If I was a parent of a recruit, I would not trust Gundy at all with my child.

The problem with vigilance is, the media has a tendancy to grab a hold of something and really hang on while completely ignoring something just as bad. Again, cheaters cheating as focusing on one scandal is a way of diverting attention from another.

You are never going to get ESPN and the other talking heads to quit hedging their bets so that they can make money be trying to be someone's Bandwagon Network.
 
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What a slime ball....money and championships talks and BS walks.....Roll tide Roll..:rolleyes:
 
Agree on this....


Well the problem is that the media give passes to certain programs they happen to adore and don't really focus on these kinds of things. Notice how much attention ESPN is giving Charles Jackson (but only one side of it) and ask yourself, if this was Notre Dame, would it have even been mentioned?

Truth is, they (aka National Media) love Nick Saban and Alabama. They are not going to make a big deal of it for as long as they can get away with it. Their problem is, oversigning has become an issue and is now forcing programs like Alabama out in the open.

I will say that oversigning is not in itself evil. Programs need to be allowed a certain amount of flexibility. Players choose to transfer on their own. Players do break rules. There are players who sort of "give up" when they realize they aren't going to make it and just sort of coast and really just try to get a "free ride" out of the system. Coaches need to be able to remove these guys from their program and have the ability to replace them in a timely fashion. Plus the LOIs are signed a full semester before programs know if kids will make it or not. Coaches need to be able to oversign at least a little to protect themselves. Granted, they can try to recruit kids more likely to make it, but still there are so many kids that you just don't know 100%--they could make it but you don't know.

The Big Ten allows for only oversigning of only 3 players. And for each player, I believe an explanation has to be sent to the Big Ten office. I think this is the right approach. I think 3 players is a bit conservative, I'd like to see the number closer to 5 or 6, but the point is the same. There should be some limit on the oversigning at any one time.

The problem is, cheaters are always going to cheat. If you come up with a good rule designed to combat oversigning practices, the cheaters will still come up with ways to circumvent and ESPN will always help them do it as long as they are Notre Dame, USC, Miami, Texas, or one of their other precious darlings. For example, I doubt you would stop teams from being able to remove kids who violate rules (team or society). In fact, the National Media probably applauds the "integrity" of coaches doing this. So, if you come up with a tight oversign rule, the cheaters would just be more aggressive at removing players much earlier in the process. Thus, they aren't oversigning since the players are already gone. No matter how you slice it, people will take advantage of what they can and the National Media will let it slide. Everyone knew USC was cheating, but ESPN was making too much money being the USC Bandwagon Network to say anything about it.

The one way to get these guys isn't through rule changes but through vigilance. The game has a funny way of taking care of itself for the most part. If recruits are better aware of shameful practices by certain coaches and if those practices are given the light of day on ESPN, the cheaters reputations take a hit and their recruiting suffers. I don't like OSU because Gundy yanks scholarships away from kids in his recruiting class every year because he oversigned and didn't have a contingency plan for oversigning (Grayshirting for example). This is bush-league. Yet he gets away with it because no one ever hears about it. If I was a parent of a recruit, I would not trust Gundy at all with my child.

The problem with vigilance is, the media has a tendancy to grab a hold of something and really hang on while completely ignoring something just as bad. Again, cheaters cheating as focusing on one scandal is a way of diverting attention from another.

You are never going to get ESPN and the other talking heads to quit hedging their bets so that they can make money be trying to be someone's Bandwagon Network.[/QUOTE]
 
Agree on this....


Well the problem is that the media give passes to certain programs they happen to adore and don't really focus on these kinds of things. Notice how much attention ESPN is giving Charles Jackson (but only one side of it) and ask yourself, if this was Notre Dame, would it have even been mentioned?

Truth is, they (aka National Media) love Nick Saban and Alabama. They are not going to make a big deal of it for as long as they can get away with it. Their problem is, oversigning has become an issue and is now forcing programs like Alabama out in the open.

I will say that oversigning is not in itself evil. Programs need to be allowed a certain amount of flexibility. Players choose to transfer on their own. Players do break rules. There are players who sort of "give up" when they realize they aren't going to make it and just sort of coast and really just try to get a "free ride" out of the system. Coaches need to be able to remove these guys from their program and have the ability to replace them in a timely fashion. Plus the LOIs are signed a full semester before programs know if kids will make it or not. Coaches need to be able to oversign at least a little to protect themselves. Granted, they can try to recruit kids more likely to make it, but still there are so many kids that you just don't know 100%--they could make it but you don't know.

The Big Ten allows for only oversigning of only 3 players. And for each player, I believe an explanation has to be sent to the Big Ten office. I think this is the right approach. I think 3 players is a bit conservative, I'd like to see the number closer to 5 or 6, but the point is the same. There should be some limit on the oversigning at any one time.

The problem is, cheaters are always going to cheat. If you come up with a good rule designed to combat oversigning practices, the cheaters will still come up with ways to circumvent and ESPN will always help them do it as long as they are Notre Dame, USC, Miami, Texas, or one of their other precious darlings. For example, I doubt you would stop teams from being able to remove kids who violate rules (team or society). In fact, the National Media probably applauds the "integrity" of coaches doing this. So, if you come up with a tight oversign rule, the cheaters would just be more aggressive at removing players much earlier in the process. Thus, they aren't oversigning since the players are already gone. No matter how you slice it, people will take advantage of what they can and the National Media will let it slide. Everyone knew USC was cheating, but ESPN was making too much money being the USC Bandwagon Network to say anything about it.

The one way to get these guys isn't through rule changes but through vigilance. The game has a funny way of taking care of itself for the most part. If recruits are better aware of shameful practices by certain coaches and if those practices are given the light of day on ESPN, the cheaters reputations take a hit and their recruiting suffers. I don't like OSU because Gundy yanks scholarships away from kids in his recruiting class every year because he oversigned and didn't have a contingency plan for oversigning (Grayshirting for example). This is bush-league. Yet he gets away with it because no one ever hears about it. If I was a parent of a recruit, I would not trust Gundy at all with my child.

The problem with vigilance is, the media has a tendancy to grab a hold of something and really hang on while completely ignoring something just as bad. Again, cheaters cheating as focusing on one scandal is a way of diverting attention from another.

You are never going to get ESPN and the other talking heads to quit hedging their bets so that they can make money be trying to be someone's Bandwagon Network.[/QUOTE]

Yeppers
 
Well the problem is that the media give passes to certain programs they happen to adore and don't really focus on these kinds of things. Notice how much attention ESPN is giving Charles Jackson (but only one side of it) and ask yourself, if this was Notre Dame, would it have even been mentioned?

Truth is, they (aka National Media) love Nick Saban and Alabama. They are not going to make a big deal of it for as long as they can get away with it. Their problem is, oversigning has become an issue and is now forcing programs like Alabama out in the open.

I will say that oversigning is not in itself evil. Programs need to be allowed a certain amount of flexibility. Players choose to transfer on their own. Players do break rules. There are players who sort of "give up" when they realize they aren't going to make it and just sort of coast and really just try to get a "free ride" out of the system. Coaches need to be able to remove these guys from their program and have the ability to replace them in a timely fashion. Plus the LOIs are signed a full semester before programs know if kids will make it or not. Coaches need to be able to oversign at least a little to protect themselves. Granted, they can try to recruit kids more likely to make it, but still there are so many kids that you just don't know 100%--they could make it but you don't know.

The Big Ten allows for only oversigning of only 3 players. And for each player, I believe an explanation has to be sent to the Big Ten office. I think this is the right approach. I think 3 players is a bit conservative, I'd like to see the number closer to 5 or 6, but the point is the same. There should be some limit on the oversigning at any one time.

The problem is, cheaters are always going to cheat. If you come up with a good rule designed to combat oversigning practices, the cheaters will still come up with ways to circumvent and ESPN will always help them do it as long as they are Notre Dame, USC, Miami, Texas, or one of their other precious darlings. For example, I doubt you would stop teams from being able to remove kids who violate rules (team or society). In fact, the National Media probably applauds the "integrity" of coaches doing this. So, if you come up with a tight oversign rule, the cheaters would just be more aggressive at removing players much earlier in the process. Thus, they aren't oversigning since the players are already gone. No matter how you slice it, people will take advantage of what they can and the National Media will let it slide. Everyone knew USC was cheating, but ESPN was making too much money being the USC Bandwagon Network to say anything about it.

The one way to get these guys isn't through rule changes but through vigilance. The game has a funny way of taking care of itself for the most part. If recruits are better aware of shameful practices by certain coaches and if those practices are given the light of day on ESPN, the cheaters reputations take a hit and their recruiting suffers. I don't like OSU because Gundy yanks scholarships away from kids in his recruiting class every year because he oversigned and didn't have a contingency plan for oversigning (Grayshirting for example). This is bush-league. Yet he gets away with it because no one ever hears about it. If I was a parent of a recruit, I would not trust Gundy at all with my child.

The problem with vigilance is, the media has a tendancy to grab a hold of something and really hang on while completely ignoring something just as bad. Again, cheaters cheating as focusing on one scandal is a way of diverting attention from another.

You are never going to get ESPN and the other talking heads to quit hedging their bets so that they can make money be trying to be someone's Bandwagon Network.

Yes, but it would seem each kid would only be experiencing his little part of the process and may not see the whole picture in any one year to be able to assess the entire situation, thus not really make the judgment not to sign. Besides that, I would think each athlete might have the confidence that they would survive later just as most athletes aren't afraid of competition, so it would always be the "other kid's problem, not mine". So, expecting the kids to be defacto police of the problem might be a little bit of a stretch as an overall solution.

Parents, on the other hand might exert a little more influence.

Otherwise, I agree with your assessment. Well thought out.
 
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http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2011/02/04/quick-numbers-comparison-b1g-and-sec/

That is a comparison of the Big 10 and SEC classes from this year - both have 12 teams, but the SEC has an average of 24 commits per team while Big 10 has 20 per team. Illinois is the only Big 10 team to have more than the 25 commits that they are supposed to have, while the SEC has:

South Carolina - 30
Arkansas - 30
Tennessee - 27
Mississippi - 27

I can understand Tennessee since this is Dooley's first actual class, and there was sizable turnover when he took over. But South Carolina (Spurrier), Arkansas (Petrino), and Ole Miss (Nutt) are a different story.
 
Yes, but it would seem each kid would only be experiencing his little part of the process and may not see the whole picture in any one year to be able to assess the entire situation, thus not really make the judgment not to sign. Besides that, I would think each athlete might have the confidence that they would survive later just as most athletes aren't afraid of competition, so it would always be the "other kid's problem, not mine". So, expecting the kids to be defacto police of the problem might be a little bit of a stretch as an overall solution.

Parents, on the other hand might exert a little more influence.

Otherwise, I agree with your assessment. Well thought out.

Point well taken as far as the "infacto police" part as far as the recruits go and I would not suggest that it should be left to that. Of course, there is always a "Buyer beware" factor in all facets of marketing regardless how many rules are in place. I think oversigning needs to be looked at from all sides and some rules need to be changed. My fear is that one or two knee-jerk reactionary incidents prompt ill-advised rule changes that actually work to help the cheaters cheat and punish everyone else for their occassional and often times well intentioned mistakes.
 
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Did we ever get investigated for our "county scholarship" program, that so many accused us of?
 



http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2011/02/04/quick-numbers-comparison-b1g-and-sec/

That is a comparison of the Big 10 and SEC classes from this year - both have 12 teams, but the SEC has an average of 24 commits per team while Big 10 has 20 per team. Illinois is the only Big 10 team to have more than the 25 commits that they are supposed to have, while the SEC has:

South Carolina - 30
Arkansas - 30
Tennessee - 27
Mississippi - 27

I can understand Tennessee since this is Dooley's first actual class, and there was sizable turnover when he took over. But South Carolina (Spurrier), Arkansas (Petrino), and Ole Miss (Nutt) are a different story.

IMO that's huge and the only valid reason for the SEC's recent success. 20% more players in each class has a significant impact to the quality of your team, and every one of these extra players would have played for someone else, so in effect they are weakening the opposition while improving themselves. What blows me away is that the rest of the BCS conferences don't throw a fit and get this stopped. Forget the presses love affair with the SEC, why aren't the Ohio State, Nebraska, Texas, etc., presidents blowing a gasket on this? How many national championships in a row by the SEC do we need before the playing field is re-leveled?
 
IMO that's huge and the only valid reason for the SEC's recent success. 20% more players in each class has a significant impact to the quality of your team, and every one of these extra players would have played for someone else, so in effect they are weakening the opposition while improving themselves. What blows me away is that the rest of the BCS conferences don't throw a fit and get this stopped. Forget the presses love affair with the SEC, why aren't the Ohio State, Nebraska, Texas, etc., presidents blowing a gasket on this? How many national championships in a row by the SEC do we need before the playing field is re-leveled?

I think it is coming.
 

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