Tommie Frazier vs. Turner Gill

[GIFRRO]

Unlike Frazier, Turner Gill didn't play his freshman year because no freshman played varsity back in those days. Gill also missed much of his sophomore year because of an injury to his lower leg. The press gave Frazier the MVP in those bowl games, but I would argue that in the 1994 game against Miami it was the defense that was the MVP, not Frazier. In the 1995 championship against Florida, Nebraska probably could have won with Matt Turman at QB, that is how much Nebraska outclassed that Florida team. The reason Frazier has 2 national championship rings and Gill has none is because the mid-90's teams had great defenses, and the early-80eams didn't.

Bingo
COulda won without him in 95
Didnt need him in 97
he was fortunate to be the qb at a time when we had the best teams across the board that TO ever had

Qbs get too much credit when teams win, hes a great example.
Good qb, too much credit. Just like replacing him in 97 still won us a natty in 97, it would have in 95 too

 

[Warzone]

@Warzone i believe the option play you referenced in our discussion is at the 5:08 mark of the 4th quarter. (2 hrs 29mins into video. The beauty of Tom Osbornes offense is the variety of the 'same" play. Gills option in 84 was a much different design and yet the same 20+ yard play.

Hey I tried to delete the rest of your text since only part of it was about the play I was referencing. All I can ask you is to define a "much" different design. I was an option QB. I am not arguing that there were not differences, but this is pretty much the exact same play. Even down to the strong side scheme. From the perspective of the QB, this was the same play. Gill's job was either to cut it up field or to bait the DE. He did not bait the DE because he was too tentative. This allowed the LB to come down on the play. Tommie made the play in 94. The RB made the play in 84.

 

[Warzone]

Unlike Frazier, Turner Gill didn't play his freshman year because no freshman played varsity back in those days. Gill also missed much of his sophomore year because of an injury to his lower leg. The press gave Frazier the MVP in those bowl games, but I would argue that in the 1994 game against Miami it was the defense that was the MVP, not Frazier. In the 1995 championship against Florida, Nebraska probably could have won with Matt Turman at QB, that is how much Nebraska outclassed that Florida team. The reason Frazier has 2 national championship rings and Gill has none is because the mid-90's teams had great defenses, and the early-80's teams didn't.

Tommie started as a Freshman because everyone knew he was the answer. I believe he unseated the Senior Grant after Washington.

 

[Warzone]

Would love to see the replay of which you speak. It sounds to me that the only similarity between the two was the distance to the 1st down. My recollection.of the play in which you speak was clearly not defended the same. Our first clue’s are the facts both plays had great success because both QB did two different things (Frazier kept, Gill pitched) Both executed to perfection… yet different.

How you can you say that gill was a detriment to the play in which our 3rd team tailback ran 20 yards before being touched on 4th and 8 is baffling to me. At least you’re not saying it had something to do with the graduation of the backup MLB.

The option is designed with a few things in mind. First, it creates a numbers advantage at the edge and hopefully, at worst makes the DB have to make a 1 v 1 tackle. It also makes your bigger players have to run, and keeps them looking in the backfield and hesitate, because of the fear of the FB dive. It also lulls the secondary into trying to stop the run which opens up receivers. In both cases it was a relatively basic option play with the goal of picking up yards that were absolutely necessary. In the 94 case Turner doubted himself and pitched the ball to a walkon who made a great run. He did a poor job of baiting the DE. IMO he basically got scared to lose. In 94 Tommie also did not do the best job of baiting the DE who cut up field for about 1 yard hindering the pitch option. In that moment Tommie saw a narrow window. He could have folded down into the DE or he could have cut it up into the line and tried to save a few yards for fourth down. Instead, he made the most pivitol decision in the game.

 

[Warzone]

Bingo
COulda won without him in 95
Didnt need him in 97
he was fortunate to be the qb at a time when we had the best teams across the board that TO ever had

Qbs get too much credit when teams win, hes a great example.
Good qb, too much credit. Just like replacing him in 97 still won us a natty in 97, it would have in 95 too

OK you dont think Tommie deserved as much credit as the rest of the college football world but I get it. That team was amazing. One ESPN analyst once said that Tommie was the QB, who when it was 3rd and 4 and you needed four yards, he would pick up 15.

 

[Yoda]

Hey I tried to delete the rest of your text since only part of it was about the play I was referencing. All I can ask you is to define a "much" different design. I was an option QB. I am not arguing that there were not differences, but this is pretty much the exact same play. Even down to the strong side scheme. From the perspective of the QB, this was the same play. Gill's job was either to cut it up field or to bait the DE. He did not bait the DE because he was too tentative. This allowed the LB to come down on the play. Tommie made the play in 94. The RB made the play in 84.

I'll start the "much different" description.

Gill's first option in the 84 OB play at issue is a pass. Frazier's play never involved the pass option. The design of the 84 play, if the pass option was not open, was to option the run off the OLB of safety (the FB missed the block on the OLB), not the DE (who was first sucked in by the flow of the counter action of the play design and pivot by Gill that was not included in the 95 play design) and then blocked by the pilling LG.

The 95 play was a sprint option, no pulling lineman, no counter action, no pass option design, no FB lead and a different defender was the option defender. Other than both plays being run to the right strong-side formation, which was also the wide side, they had nothing in common from a design standpoint.

 

[gazelle]

Hey I tried to delete the rest of your text since only part of it was about the play I was referencing. All I can ask you is to define a "much" different design. I was an option QB. I am not arguing that there were not differences, but this is pretty much the exact same play. Even down to the strong side scheme. From the perspective of the QB, this was the same play. Gill's job was either to cut it up field or to bait the DE. He did not bait the DE because he was too tentative. This allowed the LB to come down on the play. Tommie made the play in 94. The RB made the play in 84.

Gill wasn't being tentative. That play that they scored the final TD on is a run/pass option. The QB's first read on that play is a pass to the split end. If the pass isn't there the QB then continues on to run an option. You can tell it is a pass play because the offensive linemen don't fire off downfield like they would in a true option play. Turner Gill ran that play to perfection.

 

[Husker In Oklahoma]

Tommie was one of the best gamers of all time. When the chips were on the line, he constantly came thru in clutch moments. NU doesn’t win in 1994 w o him. Probably one of the best tru option QB’s ever. Tommie is a top 10 all time player, at any position.

Loved Gill as well, just something was different. Great player as well. As Crab said, vastly different so each had different skill sets, and it was 10 years apart, so different type of teams.

 

[gazelle]

I'll start the "much different" description.

Gill's first option in the 84 OB play at issue is a pass. Frazier's play never involved the pass option. The design of the 84 play, if the pass option was not open, was to option the run off the OLB of safety (the FB missed the block on the OLB), not the DE (who was first sucked in by the flow of the counter action of the play design and pivot by Gill that was not included in the 95 play design) and then blocked by the pilling LG.

The 95 play was a sprint option, no pulling lineman, no counter action, no pass option design, no FB lead and a different defender was the option defender. Other than both plays being run to the right strong-side formation, which was also the wide side, they had nothing in common from a design standpoint.

I see you beat me to it. I remember watching in 1983 and thinking that I loved this play. I think this play was a precursor to the types of run/pass option plays Chip Kelly ran at Oregon.

 

[Yoda]

There is so much to unravel here, we’ll never get it all covered. I hate to do this to ya, I like you as a poster, but so much of what you are saying is wrong. You are clearly a “Crouch was a ball hog that never pitched” guy.
The fact you were an option QB is both telling and irrelevant, unless you suited up for the big red and can give us some background on the Osborne playbook. Your simplistic view of what an option is, confirms that’s not the case and since option football has been near extinct from high school since the mid 90’s this is the picture i am seeing.
It most likely places you on the floor watching the 84 orange bowl with your somewhat racist father whom, fought in the war and loved Nebraska but was still struggling with a black man navigating the Cornhusker offense for the first time, cherping on about everything that went wrong being that QB’s fault with your impressionable young mind soaking it all in. I’d also speculate that in his eyes, Osborne should have been playing Gdowski over Steve Taylor all those years ago and that Brook Berringer was a better “fit” I know these men, fathers, uncles, neighbors.... (Chris Collinsworth) It was a generation that gave much to this country but flawless people are not.
It’s ok, kids are impressionable. And your profound love of Frazier would also lead me to believe that as you grew up you realized that dad was full of crap on so many levels yet his impression of Turner Gill still sites in that belly of yours because you really aren't old enough to vividly remember it yourself. I apologize if this does not fit your description, (it does for many) but i just can't get my arms around your view of the 84 orange Bowl.
As @Yoda described in his post above, the "option" has many variations. One that jumps out regarding these 2 particular plays is the FB. Frazier ran with 2 TE in a balanced formation and no FB. Gill ran out of the I with a FB lead rather than a belly option. Turners play design was not to get to the edge quickly as Tommie's was. Formation dictates so many things starting with the defense. In Gills case (see below in short video) Nebraska lined up Irving Fryar on the play side likely figuring that he'd get double coverage after running wide open just two plays before. Gill reverses out as Nebraska so often did 40 years ago, looks for Fryar giving time for the coverage to vacate and the backside G to pull through creating a convoy of traffic which now included RG, RT, TE, FB, LG.... along with Turner and Smith. Turners objective was nowhere near the same as Fraziers was in the 95 OB which was likely a pick em option from a balanced 2 TE set. (go where they are not, you can see the SS slide over to the backside before the snap ) At the snap Frazier sprints to the edge forcing the only Hurricane on the edge to decide what to do. He chose to give Frazier the running lane.... And by the way its 3 and 3, not 4th and 8. as is the case in both plays, the blocking is fantastic and the seas open up for both Frazier on the Keep and Jeff Smith to run down the sidelines to the 4 before finding a Hurricane DB likely come off coverage of Fryar.
some more opbservations:
-Yoda mentioned in his post that option #1 was to pass. I have insider info to conflict that, but my thoughts tells me it was a decoy (draw so to speak) to vacate the 2 DB from that side. neither the backside SE (Kimball) nor the TE go downfield but rather block in Monte's (TE) case. i believe this play was design to work exactly as it played out. 4th down with 8 yards to go and both a FB and LG enter into the picture along with TE and play side line all seem to try and seal the edge....way to much congestion for gill to pick up necessary yardage. This play seemed to have 1 goal in mind, to get smith to the outside edge to pick up 8 yards. Unlike many of Eric Crouch's designed runs disguised as options, i believe this was a designed pitch all the way short catastrophe. On 4th and 8, Fryar was doubled. No doubt Tom anticipated this.

-Jeff Smith was no walk on, Smith was a highly recruited out of Wichita

-Down 1 Heisman Trophy, 1 Outland Trophy, 1 Lombardi and 8 points with 8 yards to go, 1 shot.

-Neither of these plays were executed by 1 man, a complete team accomplishment in both cases, starting with exquisite design.

Frazier option short video


Gill option short video

It’s been a minute or years, but IIRC the play call did give Gill or whoever was playing QB the option to pass depending on what the coverage was and did. Pre-snap read man and/or loose zone with no help and a good inside release, pass. Obvious double, or the safety rolls up/over on the snap, fake the pass so the defenders stay with the receiver who is clearing the outside help to run the wide. Gives time for the pulling guard to be in position to take the OLB on, giving the numbers for the keep or pitch. It was classic TO in both setting up the defense to make them choose and then run the play off what the defense chose. He was a master at doing this, whether with the option looks, formations, blocking, you name it. There was often times where a play in the first half, while going for positive yards, was called to set up a play in the second that went big. He was an innovator in doing these things.

 

[Trojan Husker]

Tommie was one of the best gamers of all time. When the chips were on the line, he constantly came thru in clutch moments. NU doesn’t win in 1994 w o him. Probably one of the best tru option QB’s ever. Tommie is a top 10 all time player, at any position.

Loved Gill as well, just something was different. Great player as well. As Crab said, vastly different so each had different skill sets, and it was 10 years apart, so different type of teams.

Most clutch player in big games I’ve ever seen.

 

[Huskerthom]

From an Xs and Os perspective great post. Especially since most people think TO ran the same offense from 73 to97. Even 83 to 97. TO developed so many different iterations of the option. What was run in 95 had little in common with the 83 version. Line play was different. Who pulled when and where. It was all amazingly different.

Just not sure why his dad being racist or not needed to be in the post?

 

[Red Reign]

From an Xs and Os perspective great post. Especially since most people think TO ran the same offense from 73 to97. Even 83 to 97. TO developed so many different iterations of the option. What was run in 95 had little in common with the 83 version. Line play was different. Who pulled when and where. It was all amazingly different.

Just not sure why his dad being racist or not needed to be in the post?

It did not need to be in the post. Its an inappropriate over the line personal attack on another poster that is neither okay or will be allowed on HM and has been removed and any replies to it have been removed. too

RR

 

[Warzone]

I'll start the "much different" description.

Gill's first option in the 84 OB play at issue is a pass. Frazier's play never involved the pass option. The design of the 84 play, if the pass option was not open, was to option the run off the OLB of safety (the FB missed the block on the OLB), not the DE (who was first sucked in by the flow of the counter action of the play design and pivot by Gill that was not included in the 95 play design) and then blocked by the pilling LG.

The 95 play was a sprint option, no pulling lineman, no counter action, no pass option design, no FB lead and a different defender was the option defender. Other than both plays being run to the right strong-side formation, which was also the wide side, they had nothing in common from a design standpoint.

Nothing in common from the design standpoint? They were both options to the same side. In almost every facet they were identical plays. The strong side blocking was different but that is pretty much it. I was an option QB so I am speaking from some experience.

 

[djlhuskerfan]

Hard to say as both qbs played in offenses that worked best to their abilities. The 90s teams were superior in talent and Gill would have succeeded very well. The 80s defenses weren't as dominant and the offensive line was better in 90s also. Gill was probably better all around but Tommie could complete passes when he absolutely had to!