The roster flip

[Captkenny]

There's more than one way to skin a cat, but Minnesota definitely went a different route and kicked our tail this year. Ohio State and others basically say "if I need you to redshirt to contribute, i'm recruiting the wrong guys." I get we are on a different level than the Buckeyes.

I also understand getting guys bigger, faster, and stronger. but guys like Ethan Piper (listed at same weight as our starting guard) and Bryce Benhart are already playing a bit. Then you have the opposite where Jurgens isn't quite where he needs to be but we still play him. Again, different scenarios so don't want to harp too much, but I don't understand why we did it with some guys but not others.

I think they were saying that Fleck "blew up the 2 deep" and just "started inserting his guys everywhere" how that would have been received here. Would an OL of LT Jaimes LG Farniok C Jurgens RG Piper RT Benhart looked that much worse? Could we have found a way to use Johnson, Robinson, Nance, Noa, and others more? Could we just take our lumps with Nelson at OLB? ILB because difficult due to injury but again, trial by fire is usually better for development.

Redshirting is the way it's been around Lincoln for decades, so I don't know it's wrong. But Fleck used his first two classes to build the foundation on the field. We basically have ours behind the scenes and are hoping they play well. The issue is, we return basically everyone on offense next year.

So Ohio State doesn't redshirt any of their players?

 

[Captkenny]

I hope your right. Can it get much worse?

Ironically, I think that was a question that was asked during the 9 and 10 win seasons with BP after certain blowout losses? The answer is apparently yes.

 

[berryhusker]

I guess I wasn't really comparing conference difficulty with this exercise. What got me to do it was a few reasons/excuses I hear:

1) Frost needs his guys
2) UCF was more talented than Nebraska when Frost got there

For #1... we have over a 70% roster flip.
For #2... if UCF had more talent, why could more of his recruits first 2 years get on the field? Expanding a little, it worried me that maybe we aren't recruiting that well if #1 and #2 are both true. How could a team with more talent allow more new recruits on the field sooner?

I would agree with you that UCF would struggle in the B1G. I'd also agree that 2017 UCF was taking 2017 Nebraska behind the woodshed. But why haven't we hit on more recruits? I think there are some big differences on why UCF had success and Nebraska isn't quite yet. I think 70% roster attrition was too much too fast leaving us extremely young. But i'm also concerned that on the recruiting trail we are struggling a bit. 2018 class almost 50% gone already, and we are only at 13 recruits for the 2020 class when we wanted to be at close to a dozen by the time the first game came around.

I don't think UCF had more talent overall. As long as we're speculating...
Just thinking out loud here... Once at UCF, Frost was in the middle of a talent hotbed. What if the coaching staff was able to recruit talent based on what they evaluated near to them and with established relationships; players that weren't necessarily 'star-studded'/ well-known by the recruiting services but were very talented? There are probably a number of 3 and 4 star kids in Florida and Georgia who would be 4 and 5 star kids in other areas where they aren't surrounded with/overshadowed by exceptional talent. Just tossing out one potential factor.

 

[N2FL]

So for me.... why are we not starting true freshman Bryce Benhart and moving Matt Farniok down to guard since we are doing that with Cam Jurgens? Minnesota played 20 true freshman last year, but now are 9-0. I suppose we are going about our foundation a little differently, but I think while we are on the brink of sub .500 again we could be taking our lumps from guys we are going to be relying on in the next few years to get them ready.

The Benhart example is a good one. I get the preference to redshirt a kid, particularly on the o-line or d-line. You'd like to get to a point where it's basically a given that guys like Benhart and Turner Corcoran are redshirting because there's no realistic chance they're beating out the guys in front of them because those guys are essentially Corcoran and Benhart recruits as well, except they have two or three years of experience and S&C on them.

Nebraska's not at that point yet, obviously, so does Frost decide to just throw those guys in there and build behind them? I think they would have went that route with Benhart had he decided to enroll early instead of wrestle his senior year. I think those six extra months with Duval and Austin, combined with the spring reps would have gotten him to the point of being ready to move Farniok to guard and get the transition going. Arriving in the summer didn't afford them that and they seemingly decided to bite the bullet and give him a redshirt, which I can't argue with. Well, I could. I could argue either strategy but can't really fault them for that decision.

I think losing Bland to grades and Gaylord to an injury really killed the plans on the o-line for this season (duh). I don't care how high the staff was/is on Jurgens, they would have rather he sat another year. JMPO, and you probably know better, but I don't think they'd be playing him now if an upperclassman like Raridon or Sichterman could have moved positions and allowed him another developmental year. I think their best options were Jurgens or Will Farniok and they love Jurgens' upside a lot more and figured to hell with it and played the cards they were dealt.

I think they wanted Gaylord to play RT for a year to allow Benhart to sit and also get Farniok a year under his belt at guard before Bryce took over at RT in '20 (unless Corcoran beat him out).

It's hard for me to fault the decisions to redshirt linemen. It'd be my preference too... but skill position players is a whole 'nother animal.

If it's me, I'm playing Rahmir Johnson and Darien Chase. You can count on Held stocking his room and spacing out your backfield wouldn't be a bad thing. Next year you're looking at having four freshmen running backs and it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Held adds another this class since you have to replace Washington. So five guys who are freshmen in eligibility. That's pretty thick.

Same goes with WR. Assuming Betts qualifies, Nebraska is going to have, what, six receivers in the same boat? Maybe seven depending on how they finish off this WR class. Yeah incoming guys also might redshirt and there's always attrition, etc., but still.

 

[N2FL]

Probably true, hindsight is a useful power. I think injuries played a part too. But now that we only have 3 games to go, we should be pretty close to using guys like Piper, Benhart, Newsome, etc.

Quinton Newsome has already burned his RS. Can't understand why he isn't seeing the field more, particularly in blowout losses like Minnesota. The starting secondary in the 4th quarter of that game should have been Newsome and Clark at corner, with NPG and Myles Farmer at safety. Get these kids some reps man

 

[Californication]

That would concern me then that what we saw at UCF had nothing to do with Duval then. I don't believe that to be the case though.

I dont see the two as mutually exclusive. It feels to me like the BIG is much more physical than the ACC and to play here you need much more time to grow / lift into an adult body. Duval could have helped at UCF a lot, but not hava as far to go, if that makers sense at all. I don't know this to be true, just spitballing. I thought of this is because I read somewhere that often (okay, maybe not often but sometimes) the difference in a 5 star and a 3 star is that one has grown to there full potential and the other is still growing.

 

[OPHusker]

*** - I would be interested in your thoughts on a topic I have been discussing with my Husker family. All fan bases talk about their youth movement and while the future does look bright for GBR, I read where the last 19 TDs for Purdue have been scored by freshmen.

Is the focus on youth (underclassmen) widespread or just what everyone wants to hang their hopes on? Thanks

 

[ShortSideOption]

I can see the thinking here at least. Jurgens had a year on campus to RS and gain about 40 lbs (not to mention work through the injuries). Benhart is a true frosh and maybe could play as well as Farniok, but it remains to be seen. Unlike others, I'm not so sure Farniok would be that much more effective inside, but I am open to the idea at least.

For next year, we'll see what development and the direction is by what happens to our OT's. We ask a ton of our OT's (pass and run blocking on an island, use finesse, use power, move a lot, etc.). It's a tough spot, but even so our OT's have been pretty lousy this year (to be fair Farniok would be better in a set with a FB and a TE, and Jaimes IMO looks hampered by the ankle injury in the IL game, IIRC?). Will both of them be starters next year? I suspect at least one will get beaten out, and don't count out both not starting.

But, in any case, I'm all for playing all the frosh as much as possible. Just don't want to burn any more shirts since we are where we are this year.

Ya, I have no idea on Farniok to guard, I just know what I see at RT from him. I also think if Wilson and/or Hixson is your weak link, let's start creating competition there right now. We also have Broc Bando who came in and did well at guard. Again, I think a season ending injury to Gaylord really handcuffed this staff (whether it should have or not I don't know).

I think Jaimes starts again at LT, but again, I wouldn't be shocked for it to be LT Jaimes, LG Bando/Piper, C Jurgens, RG Piper/Farniok, RT Benhart.

Agree, don't burn the shirts since that's the path we chose prior to the season. Burning a redshirt now won't get you anywhere. But with 3 games left we should be good to go using a lot of these guys. Heck, even McCaffrey who everyone was worried about if we made the right decision playing him for one play against Northwestern is on the verge of only playing 2 games this year.

 

[ShortSideOption]

Yeah, but is he showing better in practice? If he and Benhart have been showing better say since game 5-6, they should be playing.

I don't think they have. I don't think coaches are blatantly not playing guys. But I do feel there's a little bit of a riff in the lockerroom where some players are getting the benefit of the doubt and able to play after constantly making mistakes.

 

[ShortSideOption]

I dont see the two as mutually exclusive. It feels to me like the BIG is much more physical than the ACC and to play here you need much more time to grow / lift into an adult body. Duval could have helped at UCF a lot, but not hava as far to go, if that makers sense at all. I don't know this to be true, just spitballing. I thought of this is because I read somewhere that often (okay, maybe not often but sometimes) the difference in a 5 star and a 3 star is that one has grown to there full potential and the other is still growing.

I don't think that's true at all, and certainly not at the skill positions. Again, Minnesota played 20 true freshmen last year. They are 9-0 currently. If our S&C needs 3 seasons to take hold, we are in massive trouble. I think the bigger issue at play is 2017 UCF had "zero injuries" (I still don't believe that but i'll pass it off as truth for right now) and 2019 Nebraska has had close to 50% of their 2018 and 2019 classes either have serious injuries or leave. It's only 2 seasons in, so my alarm isn't going off yet, but that has to be corrected for 2020. You can't have four star Nick Henrich come in and need to bolster your depth at ILB and blow out his shoulder. You can't have 4 star Noa Pola-Gates blow out his knee when we are already down a safety or two. You can't have 4 star Deontai Williams blow out his shoulder first game. You can't have Tate Wildeman, Casey Rogers, Chris Hickman, and others get lengthy injuries like that. IMO that's why it's taking longer for us to get guys ready, not because of the conference we are in. Kids get in here and basically lose a 1/2 year of development.

I do agree that many times a four or five star recruit is someone that matured quicker and is a college player playing against high school kids. I get that. A lot of those Florida kids were pretty raw.

 

[ShortSideOption]

*** - I would be interested in your thoughts on a topic I have been discussing with my Husker family. All fan bases talk about their youth movement and while the future does look bright for GBR, I read where the last 19 TDs for Purdue have been scored by freshmen.

Is the focus on youth (underclassmen) widespread or just what everyone wants to hang their hopes on? Thanks

I think there's a few factors. I stated earlier that Urban Meyer basically pitches "we aren't redshirting you" to every player because if you aren't good enough to challenge to play right away, they are recruiting the wrong guys. So you have elite programs preaching playing time, then you have Nebraska's saying "you can play right away for us" due to on the field struggles. The second is there is just so much turnover in the coaching ranks, so a lot of coaches try to insert their players right away to develop their brand. But with Purdue, Rondale Moore being out has a lot to do with that. I really don't know the right answer, because I bet every coach in American would take a team full of RS Jrs and RS Srs leading the charge.

Probably has a bit to do with if you are having a down season, you are trying to play your guys. One of the problems I have with "we are young" as an excuse for the season, is we aren't young on the OL, not at QB, not at TE, and all those guys are going to be back. We brought in a youth movement at WR and they can't get on the field. It's a lot easier to accept "we are young" when you aren't losing your entire DL, an ILB, an OLB, a CB, and a S to graduation. The young guys we have can't beat out the guys that are going 4-8 last year and sub .500 this year. If we were taking our lumps with a bunch of young guys, I get it. But we are taking our lumps with older starters and coming with "we are young". It perplexes me.

 

[ShortSideOption]

So Ohio State doesn't redshirt any of their players?

I would highly doubt that.

 

[Captkenny]

I would highly doubt that.

I wouldn’t think so either. But the below quote suggested that Ohio State doesn’t recruit players who might need development before they can contribute.

“There's more than one way to skin a cat, but Minnesota definitely went a different route and kicked our tail this year. Ohio State and others basically say "if I need you to redshirt to contribute, i'm recruiting the wrong guys." I get we are on a different level than the Buckeyes.”

 

[Californication]

I don't think that's true at all, and certainly not at the skill positions. Again, Minnesota played 20 true freshmen last year. They are 9-0 currently. If our S&C needs 3 seasons to take hold, we are in massive trouble. I think the bigger issue at play is 2017 UCF had "zero injuries" (I still don't believe that but i'll pass it off as truth for right now) and 2019 Nebraska has had close to 50% of their 2018 and 2019 classes either have serious injuries or leave. It's only 2 seasons in, so my alarm isn't going off yet, but that has to be corrected for 2020. You can't have four star Nick Henrich come in and need to bolster your depth at ILB and blow out his shoulder. You can't have 4 star Noa Pola-Gates blow out his knee when we are already down a safety or two. You can't have 4 star Deontai Williams blow out his shoulder first game. You can't have Tate Wildeman, Casey Rogers, Chris Hickman, and others get lengthy injuries like that. IMO that's why it's taking longer for us to get guys ready, not because of the conference we are in. Kids get in here and basically lose a 1/2 year of development.

I do agree that many times a four or five star recruit is someone that matured quicker and is a college player playing against high school kids. I get that. A lot of those Florida kids were pretty raw.

Thanks. When talking injuries to new freshman, though, one of the things you would, have to consider is the difference in physicality in the two leagues. Perhaps Frost brought his UCF thinking here and is finding out most freshman need time to get bigger here versus there? I am just playing the contrarian here, so please disengage when this gets too annoying. I totally get it.

 

[LarstheRed]

I

No chance kemosabe.

David Coverdale's rub play involved Tawny Kitaen and it was only marginally successful.

I worked on that video. Tawny used to go to the salon my wife, then girlfriend worked at. If we are rating Tawny’s, I’d prefer Tawny Welch...she’s not as violent and a much higher rub rating.