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Reflecting on Ritchie Incognito

Middle-aged_Ball_Coach

Middle-aged_Ball_Coach

Eternal Chairman of the Defense Commission
5 Year Member
If you're one of the majority of people who categorize people into "good" or "bad" or whatever, and you cut out the gray area, I imagine that the Lawrence Phillips- and Ritchie Incognito-types of people in the world give you little cause for reflection. As a teacher/coach who has spent much of my life working with kids from mostly very tough backgrounds, these are the sorts of people who haunt my thoughts because I've often seen players/students of mine who struck me as being at a crossroads in life who could go in either of at least a couple extreme directions, just like Phillips or Incognito. I can simultaneously think that Incognito was an awful human being in many ways yet also be glad that he seems to have figured things out eventually; I mourn for Phillips (and his victims) that he did not.

I write all of this because I just came across the bizarre story of Jonathan Martin and his apparently threatening online tweets. I don't want to run Martin through the mud either, but I generally assumed that he was very much an innocent sort of victim to extreme hazing when the story broke in Miami about how Incognito and teammates acted towards him. Now I have to think that Martin has had some fairly deep and dark demons of his own that Incognito and Co. exacerbated and brought out to the surface.

Incognito said that he was giving Martin a hard time in a good-natured manner, not realizing that it was having the effect that it did because Martin didn't make it clear enough to him how he felt about it. Sure, Incognito acted like an @$$, but it made me think of those students I've known over the years whose dysfunctional fathers teach them how to do dysfunctional things, not understanding that they're being dysfunctional. It doesn't make it right, but when, for example, a father teaches his son how to pound beer because he sees it as a bonding experience (I've seen that one a couple times), how should you view the pathetic attempt at masculine/fatherly relationship building when it was well-intended, yet so wrong?

So what of Incognito? I don't think of him as a role model or anyone I'd want my sons to be around, but isn't there still hope for him? We toss aside too many people too quickly, I believe. I'm a sucker for redemption stories.

Thoughts?

Here's the article on Martin: https://sports.yahoo.com/former-nfl...ial-threatening-instagram-post-063653148.html
 

Middle-aged_Ball_Coach said:
If you're one of the majority of people who categorize people into "good" or "bad" or whatever, and you cut out the gray area, I imagine that the Lawrence Phillips- and Ritchie Incognito-types of people in the world give you little cause for reflection. As a teacher/coach who has spent much of my life working with kids from mostly very tough backgrounds, these are the sorts of people who haunt my thoughts because I've often seen players/students of mine who struck me as being at a crossroads in life who could go in either of at least a couple extreme directions, just like Phillips or Incognito. I can simultaneously think that Incognito was an awful human being in many ways yet also be glad that he seems to have figured things out eventually; I mourn for Phillips (and his victims) that he did not.

I write all of this because I just came across the bizarre story of Jonathan Martin and his apparently threatening online tweets. I don't want to run Martin through the mud either, but I generally assumed that he was very much an innocent sort of victim to extreme hazing when the story broke in Miami about how Incognito and teammates acted towards him. Now I have to think that Martin has had some fairly deep and dark demons of his own that Incognito and Co. exacerbated and brought out to the surface.

Incognito said that he was giving Martin a hard time in a good-natured manner, not realizing that it was having the effect that it did because Martin didn't make it clear enough to him how he felt about it. Sure, Incognito acted like an @$$, but it made me think of those students I've known over the years whose dysfunctional fathers teach them how to do dysfunctional things, not understanding that they're being dysfunctional. It doesn't make it right, but when, for example, a father teaches his son how to pound beer because he sees it as a bonding experience (I've seen that one a couple times), how should you view the pathetic attempt at masculine/fatherly relationship building when it was well-intended, yet so wrong?

So what of Incognito? I don't think of him as a role model or anyone I'd want my sons to be around, but isn't there still hope for him? We toss aside too many people too quickly, I believe. I'm a sucker for redemption stories.

Thoughts?

Here's the article on Martin: https://sports.yahoo.com/former-nfl...ial-threatening-instagram-post-063653148.html
Click to expand...
I think good or bad is a relative term.I too always felt bad for Philips and Incognito.Great players and incredible talent,but their lives seemed to be so empty.They got great football coaching,but early in life I think their coaches that mattered most,let them fall through the cracks.Jmo.GBR.
 
anotherdumbprediction said:
I have a hypothesis that the people that end up doing the worst things, like NE tight end Hernandez going off the rails after his father’s death, are the most sensitive types that can’t handle the adversity, not just born-mean people. One caveat being some people are just born ***** up (crazy).
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I agree, and the study of serial murderers and mass murderers bears this out. The guys in school who were mean bullies rarely grew up to be mass murderers. On the other hand, the kid who was bullied and felt like nobody cared? That is the profile of anybody from an Andy Warhol/Jackson Pollack type artist to most of the monsters behind mass shootings.
 



Middle-aged_Ball_Coach said:
If you're one of the majority of people who categorize people into "good" or "bad" or whatever, and you cut out the gray area, I imagine that the Lawrence Phillips- and Ritchie Incognito-types of people in the world give you little cause for reflection. As a teacher/coach who has spent much of my life working with kids from mostly very tough backgrounds, these are the sorts of people who haunt my thoughts because I've often seen players/students of mine who struck me as being at a crossroads in life who could go in either of at least a couple extreme directions, just like Phillips or Incognito. I can simultaneously think that Incognito was an awful human being in many ways yet also be glad that he seems to have figured things out eventually; I mourn for Phillips (and his victims) that he did not.

I write all of this because I just came across the bizarre story of Jonathan Martin and his apparently threatening online tweets. I don't want to run Martin through the mud either, but I generally assumed that he was very much an innocent sort of victim to extreme hazing when the story broke in Miami about how Incognito and teammates acted towards him. Now I have to think that Martin has had some fairly deep and dark demons of his own that Incognito and Co. exacerbated and brought out to the surface.

Incognito said that he was giving Martin a hard time in a good-natured manner, not realizing that it was having the effect that it did because Martin didn't make it clear enough to him how he felt about it. Sure, Incognito acted like an @$$, but it made me think of those students I've known over the years whose dysfunctional fathers teach them how to do dysfunctional things, not understanding that they're being dysfunctional. It doesn't make it right, but when, for example, a father teaches his son how to pound beer because he sees it as a bonding experience (I've seen that one a couple times), how should you view the pathetic attempt at masculine/fatherly relationship building when it was well-intended, yet so wrong?

So what of Incognito? I don't think of him as a role model or anyone I'd want my sons to be around, but isn't there still hope for him? We toss aside too many people too quickly, I believe. I'm a sucker for redemption stories.

Thoughts?

Here's the article on Martin: https://sports.yahoo.com/former-nfl...ial-threatening-instagram-post-063653148.html
Click to expand...
OK now you are touching on a real nerve for me. I have coached a lot of kids through the years. Some grew up to disappoint me. Some made me proud. One kid haunts me. Kid's father was killed in a gang fight when he was 5. Mom was a crack addict with 5 kids from 5 fathers. After the first year we saw he was in trouble so we would pick him up on friday night so he could make the games Sat morning. After the games we would invite him to stay with us and eat dinner. Usually after dinner we would ask him if he wanted to spend the night. He always said yes. Then we would ask if he wanted to call his Mom he would always sadly answer. She does not care. We would drop him at home Sunday morning on our way to church. (He lived 2 miles away) Almost every week when we got back from church he would be sitting on our porch. It got to the point where we considered adopting him. (My biggest regret is that I did not ask his Mom) Anyway in the 9th grade he stopped coming around. I asked my son why. He told me, Dad he is in a gang and he knows you do not want that around the house. I saw him one time after that in a Walmart. He would not look me in the eye when I talked to him.

He is not in prison. I sent him a letter and he told my daughter that he could not respond because he cried for two days after he read it. He felt so bad that he disappointed me. I still can not think about him without crying. I loved him like a son, I felt trapped in what I could and could not do.
 
Like everyone else, I tend to develop opinions about people without ever meeting them face to face. We're provided so much information about folks in sports, entertainment, politics, etc. that it's almost like we're in a small part of their lives. This is obviously not a good way to understand or develop an opinion of someone, but we can't know and meet everyone and we're going to develop those opinions regardless.

Incognito has mental health issues. I think for years those issues may have actually played a role in his success on the football field and were largely hidden by the expected persona required to play the game at the college and professional level. By all accounts he's still at least serviceable as an offensive lineman in the NFL if not well above that level from a skill and productivity standpoint, but obviously teams figure out sooner or later that they have a hard time handling his issues off the field between games and in the off season. I don't feel like he's a bad human being, but a man who needs help or more help than he's getting or willing to accept. Not everyone with a mental health issue can be 'fixed' through counseling or medication to the point that their issues are unseen to the rest of society, but I strongly suspect his could be reduced to a level that would make his day in, day out behavior tolerable to a potential employer, coaching staff or teammates.
 
Huskerthom said:
OK now you are touching on a real nerve for me. I have coached a lot of kids through the years. Some grew up to disappoint me. Some made me proud. One kid haunts me. Kid's father was killed in a gang fight when he was 5. Mom was a crack addict with 5 kids from 5 fathers. After the first year we saw he was in trouble so we would pick him up on friday night so he could make the games Sat morning. After the games we would invite him to stay with us and eat dinner. Usually after dinner we would ask him if he wanted to spend the night. He always said yes. Then we would ask if he wanted to call his Mom he would always sadly answer. She does not care. We would drop him at home Sunday morning on our way to church. (He lived 2 miles away) Almost every week when we got back from church he would be sitting on our porch. It got to the point where we considered adopting him. (My biggest regret is that I did not ask his Mom) Anyway in the 9th grade he stopped coming around. I asked my son why. He told me, Dad he is in a gang and he knows you do not want that around the house. I saw him one time after that in a Walmart. He would not look me in the eye when I talked to him.

He is not in prison. I sent him a letter and he told my daughter that he could not respond because he cried for two days after he read it. He felt so bad that he disappointed me. I still can not think about him without crying. I loved him like a son, I felt trapped in what I could and could not do.
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What you’ve done is wonderful and you know you’ve left a positive impact.
 




Huskerthom said:
OK now you are touching on a real nerve for me. I have coached a lot of kids through the years. Some grew up to disappoint me. Some made me proud. One kid haunts me. Kid's father was killed in a gang fight when he was 5. Mom was a crack addict with 5 kids from 5 fathers. After the first year we saw he was in trouble so we would pick him up on friday night so he could make the games Sat morning. After the games we would invite him to stay with us and eat dinner. Usually after dinner we would ask him if he wanted to spend the night. He always said yes. Then we would ask if he wanted to call his Mom he would always sadly answer. She does not care. We would drop him at home Sunday morning on our way to church. (He lived 2 miles away) Almost every week when we got back from church he would be sitting on our porch. It got to the point where we considered adopting him. (My biggest regret is that I did not ask his Mom) Anyway in the 9th grade he stopped coming around. I asked my son why. He told me, Dad he is in a gang and he knows you do not want that around the house. I saw him one time after that in a Walmart. He would not look me in the eye when I talked to him.

He is not in prison. I sent him a letter and he told my daughter that he could not respond because he cried for two days after he read it. He felt so bad that he disappointed me. I still can not think about him without crying. I loved him like a son, I felt trapped in what I could and could not do.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing @Huskerthom ... both heart warming & heart breaking ... our society needs more like you: involved, mentoring, and trying to break that vicious cycle of despair / lost opportunities.
 
Huskerthom said:
OK now you are touching on a real nerve for me. I have coached a lot of kids through the years. Some grew up to disappoint me. Some made me proud. One kid haunts me. Kid's father was killed in a gang fight when he was 5. Mom was a crack addict with 5 kids from 5 fathers. After the first year we saw he was in trouble so we would pick him up on friday night so he could make the games Sat morning. After the games we would invite him to stay with us and eat dinner. Usually after dinner we would ask him if he wanted to spend the night. He always said yes. Then we would ask if he wanted to call his Mom he would always sadly answer. She does not care. We would drop him at home Sunday morning on our way to church. (He lived 2 miles away) Almost every week when we got back from church he would be sitting on our porch. It got to the point where we considered adopting him. (My biggest regret is that I did not ask his Mom) Anyway in the 9th grade he stopped coming around. I asked my son why. He told me, Dad he is in a gang and he knows you do not want that around the house. I saw him one time after that in a Walmart. He would not look me in the eye when I talked to him.

He is not in prison. I sent him a letter and he told my daughter that he could not respond because he cried for two days after he read it. He felt so bad that he disappointed me. I still can not think about him without crying. I loved him like a son, I felt trapped in what I could and could not do.
Click to expand...
Teaching and coaching for over 35 years it’s so difficult to see kids who just seem to be dealt a horrible hand in life. More and more seem to be falling through the cracks and often taken advantage of because of an athletic skill. Dr. Tom took a ton of criticism for helping Lawrence Phillips and there are many others out there both teachers and coaches who are taking heat for doing the same.
I wish the child welfare systems had more clout to remove kids from dangerous parents.
You did make a difference in that young man’s life.
 
Huskerthom said:
OK now you are touching on a real nerve for me. I have coached a lot of kids through the years. Some grew up to disappoint me. Some made me proud. One kid haunts me. Kid's father was killed in a gang fight when he was 5. Mom was a crack addict with 5 kids from 5 fathers. After the first year we saw he was in trouble so we would pick him up on friday night so he could make the games Sat morning. After the games we would invite him to stay with us and eat dinner. Usually after dinner we would ask him if he wanted to spend the night. He always said yes. Then we would ask if he wanted to call his Mom he would always sadly answer. She does not care. We would drop him at home Sunday morning on our way to church. (He lived 2 miles away) Almost every week when we got back from church he would be sitting on our porch. It got to the point where we considered adopting him. (My biggest regret is that I did not ask his Mom) Anyway in the 9th grade he stopped coming around. I asked my son why. He told me, Dad he is in a gang and he knows you do not want that around the house. I saw him one time after that in a Walmart. He would not look me in the eye when I talked to him.

He is not in prison. I sent him a letter and he told my daughter that he could not respond because he cried for two days after he read it. He felt so bad that he disappointed me. I still can not think about him without crying. I loved him like a son, I felt trapped in what I could and could not do.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing that story. I have different versions of that kid coming in and out of my classroom every day. They're so hardened that it's hard to break through, and when you do, there are never any guarantees. It's hard for others to understand why I do it, and sometimes it's hard for me to understand, but once you see the hurt on the inside, it's hard to walk away.
 



CrabHusker said:
Like everyone else, I tend to develop opinions about people without ever meeting them face to face. We're provided so much information about folks in sports, entertainment, politics, etc. that it's almost like we're in a small part of their lives. This is obviously not a good way to understand or develop an opinion of someone, but we can't know and meet everyone and we're going to develop those opinions regardless.

Incognito has mental health issues. I think for years those issues may have actually played a role in his success on the football field and were largely hidden by the expected persona required to play the game at the college and professional level. By all accounts he's still at least serviceable as an offensive lineman in the NFL if not well above that level from a skill and productivity standpoint, but obviously teams figure out sooner or later that they have a hard time handling his issues off the field between games and in the off season. I don't feel like he's a bad human being, but a man who needs help or more help than he's getting or willing to accept. Not everyone with a mental health issue can be 'fixed' through counseling or medication to the point that their issues are unseen to the rest of society, but I strongly suspect his could be reduced to a level that would make his day in, day out behavior tolerable to a potential employer, coaching staff or teammates.
Click to expand...
I hadn't followed him closely, but I mean it when I say that guys like Incognito and Phillips haunt me because I see their stories as potential outcomes for some of my most talented kids (meaning their mistakes, but not professional sports). From what I gathered, though, it seemed like Incognito had found a better balance over his last years in Buffalo. I haven't heard anything about this year.

I'd love to chat with him, hear him explain what he's learned and is still working on.
 
YUENGLING said:
I wish the child welfare systems had more clout to remove kids from dangerous parents.
Click to expand...
You don't want to get me started on this topic. It's broken from both ends: middle class families get unnecessarily harassed after reports from Bad Samaritan neighbors about mundane things that were normal a generation ago, but kids who desperately need intervention in order to have a chance at survival are ignored. You can't talk about the Type-A errors that they're making without also pointing out the Type-B errors.

The whole system is based on a racialist politically-correct view of families, cultures, and human nature that is unable to cope with the reality. In South Dakota, there are kids who should be removed from dangerous homes, but there is a reluctance to do so when that minority population is so over-represented already in the numbers for child-protection services. There are kids living in meth houses, not being fed or cared for, but they won't do anything until the parents are put in jail, and the authorities have no other choice. Even then, an uncle or auntie who has the same sort of drug issues will often be the first choice for caring for the kids because they're family. Making it all even more complicated, they don't want to put minority kids in white homes, even though there is a horrible shortage of minority foster home openings and an overflow of white homes. People get really angry when I point that out. I'm sorry that that hurts your feelings. I just want the kids to be safe and in a home where they're loved and cared for. If the race doesn't match, that's a secondary issue. Most states' foster systems don't see it that clearly, so some bad homes pass inspection because they're graded on a curve when there's a need for matching homes.
 
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Middle-aged_Ball_Coach said:
You don't want to get me started on this topic. It's broken from both ends: middle class families get unnecessarily harassed after reports from Bad Samaritan neighbors about mundane things that were normal a generation ago, but kids who desperately need intervention in order to have a chance at survival are ignored. You can't talk about the Type-A errors that they're making without also pointing out the Type-B errors.

The whole system is based on a racialist politically-correct view of families, cultures, and human nature that is unable to cope with the reality. In South Dakota, there are kids who should be removed from dangerous homes, but there is a reluctance to do so when that minority population is so over-represented already in the numbers for child-protection services. There are kids living in meth houses, not being fed or cared for, but they won't do anything until the parents are put in jail, and the authorities have no other choice. Even then, an uncle or auntie who has the same sort of drug issues will often be the first choice for caring for the kids because they're family. Making it all even more complicated, they don't want to put minority kids in white homes, even though there is a horrible shortage of minority foster home openings and an overflow of white homes. People get really angry when I point that out. I'm sorry that that hurts your feelings. I just want the kids to be safe and in a home where they're loved and cared for. If the race doesn't match, that's a secondary issue. Most states foster systems don't see it that clearly, so some bad homes pass inspection because they're graded on a curve when there's a need for matching homes.
Click to expand...
Clearly there’s so much that needs to be fixed.
 
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