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Misplaced Optimism

Discussion in 'Men's Basketball' started by Sofa King, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. CrabHusker

    CrabHusker Blackshirt 5 Year Member

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    It was an honest mistake and no apology is needed. It happens all the time on these types of forums as does misunderstanding intent. Without being face to face with someone and hearing their tone of voice, seeing facial expressions and/or body language it's really difficult to read their intent.

    That's really where the rubber meets the road for me and I was a Miles fan when he was at CSU. The culture and overall talent level of the program rests squarely on his shoulders seven years in. I wish it had worked out not just for Nebraska basketball fans and players, but for Miles as well. Seems like a good guy. As for the future of the program, I honestly don't know what's next. I often wonder what would've happened had Self taken the job. It's a football school, but it's obvious to me given the level of support in the fanbase and Lincoln community, Nebraska could and should be good. I'm not talking Kansas or Kentucky kind of perennially top ten, but why not every few years?

    It's all good Jack. No blood, no foul.
     
    Jack Riggins and huskermike like this.
  2. CrabHusker

    CrabHusker Blackshirt 5 Year Member

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    I completely agree with the last sentence, but that can also come from within a coaching staff. I'm not saying outside help isn't or couldn't be a benefit, but seven years in, the culture belongs to Mr. Miles and Mr. Miles alone and I for one don't like the idea of potentially propping him up with outside help. I don't think there is much doubt it's time for a change and It's easier to flip the script with a basketball team than it is football, so this shouldn't be a five+ year rebuilt, IMO.
     
    bilsker likes this.
  3. NavyWarrant

    NavyWarrant Red Shirt 5 Year Member

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    In my opinion, Coach Miles days are numbered. He coaches like we have a team of 5 star guys that can play off of pure athletic ability. However, we have players that need structure and struggle without it. Not playing the bench more in non-conference games is now affecting the team. Players were not given the chance to build confidence against lessor opponents and failures in the B1G schedule only magnify their lack of belief.

    When I speak of support, I am referring to the "everyday life" aspect. Over the last few years, I have become keenly aware of how much outside influences affect on court performance. Athletes have personal problems, just like the rest of us, and it isn't as easy to forget them when you walk into the gym. Girls, money, social media, relationship with other players all wreak havoc on young minds.
     
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  4. Jack Riggins

    Jack Riggins Stay Calm, and Carry On Husker Nation

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    If this would help or might help, I think we would all take it! :Wink:
     
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  5. Jack Riggins

    Jack Riggins Stay Calm, and Carry On Husker Nation

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    Agreed on young minds, and it takes more than coaches to get the ELITE or even better than average results these days. Coaches are ultimately responsible, but more and more are using many "other" resources than 10-15-20 years ago. Having seen the AD support structure ebb and flow over the last 9 years from the inside, I am not buying our "Only in-house support model". Huskers athletics as a whole, has been moving backwards for some time and it is prolly wise for people to consider why? VB continues to thrive, FB has a chance after it being DESTROYED but one things remains common the way the AD supports. It's is far more in depth and nuanced than new coaches (any sport), money, facilities and the fan base.
     
  6. Jack Riggins

    Jack Riggins Stay Calm, and Carry On Husker Nation

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    Great tidbit about communication dynamics there. You and I agree this is Squarely on the HC shoulders....and what will be, will be. I often wonder what is next every-time we get a new coach or AD or re-structure with in AD. Turnover is always hard, but shouldn't cause implosions like we had with SE and FB. Yes I think NEB BB could be consistently good with the support you speak off, but historically it hasn't. Maybe a curse of FB school (Not so much anymore, we prolly a VB school now, and hopefully FB again soon) but given conference and community support we should strive to be Top 25 every year, and if we can sustain and have stability maybe regular tournaments with some Sweet 16's? I don't know, I just look at internal workings and support structures inside the Teams and what I see from AD and know it could be better across the board. Some coaches get it, Some AD people get it, and some don't. Some need help and will ask for it. Some need help and won't ask or take it, and then there are those who are just STUPID and you can't FIX STUPID. I hope the whole thing gets clicking on all fronts, cause we all know what that feels like around here.
     
  7. Jack Riggins

    Jack Riggins Stay Calm, and Carry On Husker Nation

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    Yes AD's do have finite resources, however each TEAM has unique needs and I think good leadership can and should be expected to fulfill that if it can afford too, it is within the rules etc..etc...I don't think picking and choosing who to BOLSTER support for and NOT to is a good idea, when you are public stating "We are shooting for the stars, and going to be great across the board". That is just playing to a desperate fan base.

    The dynamic above creates plenty of friction in organizations day to day because internally you can't hide from the facts of who is getting what and who isn't. But, your point is valid and could be how our AD operates currently. I just expect more from a 30 Million dollar? organization with many employees making around 200K and 1.2 million dollar boss.

    For instance: The AD can provide S&C, Nutrition, Academic, Physical Thearpy, Life Skills, and Sports Phycology, NAPL etc...but if those aren't structured right or have a work-load that makes it so they CAN"T support the Teams as there mission statements say they can, that is a problem and falls squarely on the AD. Now Nebraska is well positioned in some of those areas and not so well in others. I do believe this is why many coaches have looked outside the department for help (paid or volunteer) over the years. So I am not sure if a coach wants to develop his/her own leadership or do staff development where they are suppose to go? Well, other organizations bring in people correct? If coaches feel the AD cannot meet their unique demands now or in a timeline that makes sense for their competitive cycle, where are they suppose to go? Let's be honest, none of the provided SUPPORT from the AD looses its job if the coaches teams don't perform....That creates a strange dynamic between Teams/Coaches and the AD and if you want to be GREAT top to bottom then it needs to be addressed. Not next year, NOW. It has needed to be fixed for quite awhile, and the window dressing that everything is smooth in the AD and the support to Teams is GREAT cause Moos is here is false. Until it is addressed, it will rear its ugly head in the form of bad performances and suspect Teams showered with the best PR in the world to keep the fans decently happy and buying tickets, but NOT winning championships or competing at a level we think we should be. Of course this is just my opinion.

    AGREE on coaches bringing FOUNDATION and STRUCTURE, and needing to coach and run their programs.

    Of course you are correct about bias as well, I will not hide that because it is impossible to work with any group of people on relationships, team building, and leadership and no matter how "jacked up" or "good they are" you are going to do your best to help while you can as you have written more clearly than me. That is why I have joined the board as me (who I am, what I have done, and what I do) because there is always going to be that optic. However, I have tried to present this item as unbiased as I can, because I have seen this repeat itself time and time again and it is hurting the overall competitive nature of the School. I was and am hoping Bill Moos will change that. He hasn't yet. AD feels like a car with a new paint job, but same old engine or maybe a new horn....Hey Tim has made his bed, and he would be the first to tell you as he did me in July, "I need to win and be consistent or I am gone, I know that". So your assessment is fair, and the season is confirming that. My deal is for the AD to stop chirping and putting out awesome PR blurbs and start supporting so our teams so they can win, maybe invest in getting to know his coaches and understanding the unique nature of there sports and working to build that, find it, and provide it.

    As far as investing in resources, why wouldn't you invest in FREE/LEGAL outside resources? Miles might be a crap sandwich, but he is our coach until he is not and he has 12-15 kids who want to win so I am of the opinion you support them fully until the end season. Then do what you got to do. Now going and buying him a 50K gadget, or 50K consultant might be silly if the AD viewed it as you suggest. All the in-house resources should be ALL HANDS on deck, cause that IS what they are being paid to do right? Coaching circle is tight, you walk a fine line if you are hot/cold on this issue coach by coach and don't set your national reputation up well for future hires, and frankly drop the morale and trust of your current coaches in all sports when they sense or see this dynamic. There is lots of great website write ups and PR that comes out of that place, and I believe some in the AD actually think they provide great support in thier area of expertise, but the results and outcomes suggest otherwise beyond the coaches.

    Of course both your thoughts and mine assume the AD is competent/present and all his people in the AD are competent and want the same thing which is a world-class Husker Student Athlete experience along with the MOST competitive Teams possible. It is assuming the NU Leadership did thier homework and got a guy that can execute and guide the department in a way to enable the coaches and Teams to do that. I look at the outcomes and what I see, plus what I have seen and I think we will be needing yet another change in AD leadership. Once the departments gets up to par with the tenacity and energy of SF "We all need to row in the same direction" we will be on to something across the entire continuum of sports and with out it, I think even our best, brightest and "newest" will continue to struggle and you and I will be having this conversation again in 3-5 years.
     
  8. LarstheRed

    LarstheRed Junior Varsity 5 Year Member

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    My contention is you need to earn it if you want something more out of the norm. I don’t see Miles doing the job I’d expect from someone with his HC experience. If he doesn’t have those basics being developed properly in a solid system at this point, then I think he’s not the coach I’m willing to put more resources into. He’s been here 7 years, he’s not some newbie fresh from CSU.


    As I’ve mentioned, if Moos is like I am, I’m not thrilled with much of what I see. I see a lack of preparation, execution, fundamentals, footwork, technique, even basic concepts of basketball. Why would I feel taking time away from work in those areas to be the wiser investment? Is your work going to make Palmer not shoot on the way down? Is it going to get Roby to just catch and shoot? If we were at a level of competence most would expect us to be, then I’m all for you nudging is another level. We just aren’t even playing solid basketball at this point.

    The AD isn’t the guy who hasn’t run a good offense since Miles became HC...especially since he wasn’t here until the last couple of years. Did Moos stop you from working with Cook? So apparently he’s not completely opposed to outsiders working with programs. His hesitation to have you participating with Men’s basketball might be more about the state of men’s hoops, and less about you or a stubborn AD.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  9. FullbackTrap

    FullbackTrap Red Shirt 5 Year Member

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    I know you already typed it, but just think again about the bolded for a second ... I dare ya ;)

    Unbelievable
     
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  10. FullbackTrap

    FullbackTrap Red Shirt 5 Year Member

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    Lars I think you've pinned where Jack was ultimately trying to come from ... Jack and his organization are legit, I've heard him speak and the message he works to deliver is Team oriented and aimed at full accountability. I also agree with you that the situation Miles has found himself in is of his doing, over an extended period of time, and honestly would be hard pressed to suggest Miles himself would deflect accountability to it.

    Bill Moos, should he decide to fire Tim Miles, will have done so based on an overall assessment of the program and its trajectory ... not a lot of folks in here posting, nor out there reading, will disagree with that decision after Miles' 7 years leading this program.

    Miles is a stand up guy, liked and respected amongst his peers, I suspect he'll land somewhere with another opportunity to lead a program down the road.
     
  11. Jack Riggins

    Jack Riggins Stay Calm, and Carry On Husker Nation

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    Wow, I am not going to lie it took me about 10 minutes to figure out the multiple quote deal. That makes thought streams a bit more manageable. Also, I enjoy our civilized discourse on the subject...people tell me these boards can be brutal. Not yet, but it is only my first week. I understand your thoughts on earning it, but I don't think FREE/VOLUNTEER time counts as extra resources IMO. If I was looking from 50,000ft I probably wouldn't expend any capital $$$ on this 7 year performance either, however I would ensure my paid resources or "in-house" as the department likes to say would be all in, but they are not and that is a problem. As a matter of fact, if the optic is "I give one coach I must give others", I would say you absolutely should if it is FREE/VOLUNTEER/LEGAL and wanted in the best professional judgement of the coach regardless the sport. However, that also should spark a thought of "Wait if several of my coaches are asking for outside help, what am I not providing in-house they feel they need or what is my in-house paid staff NOT DOING RIGHT?" I don't think we will see eye to eye on earning support, because I believe it is departments job to do that with inside or outside, from the minute a kid and coach step on campus if we want to compete like the leaders say we do.

    Who in the hell would be thrilled with what we see. I certainly am not. I would however, dig deep into the recent history of MBB since Tim's arrival and understand how we got to this point in order to make an informed decision on both this staff and any future staff so it doesn't happen again, cause if one thing is certain with Husker MBB this program repeats itself with whatever coach is in charge and most people don't like it at some point after the HOPE of a new hire wears off. There is plenty of time in a Student/Athletes day to educate and train in Leadership and Team Dynamic (Culture) without interrupting the technical, tactical part of their training. There is plenty of time in a coaches day to do the same thing. None the Leader/Team/Culture training helps with the thinks you see lack of that is for sure. The work I do can help a James Palmer understand under pressure why it is important to not put him selves in those positions trying to take on 3 defenders when others are open and how it is selfish and hurts the Team. It can help him understand he is not good enough to carry the Team by himself and needs to learn to TRUST his teammates and not go solo, and that ultimately he is also simultaneously ruining the prospects of his playing future by continuing to act this way. But NO, I can't teach him how to not shoot on the way down. I can teach him how to use this teammates, and overcome his weaknesses for the greater good of the Team. Roby is capable of that and I wish he was doing it NOW in games, but he is not. It certainly isn't an ability thing with him, it is a deal of confidence and other Team Dynamics that create that hesitation that hurts him and the Team. I am confident I could help him with that, but you can't just help him to get that simple "catch and shoot" you have to work with the group as well. In my experience, what I and others in this Leadership/Team/Cultural subset of performance do absolutely can push competent Teams to another level because the nudge isn't that far, but is often the hardest. Where you actually see the most gains and quicker results is with mediocre to average teams because they often lack the understanding/traits/advantage this type of performance subset can give you. You can't say they weren't capable of it, and I am holding out they can finish strong and feel satisfied in their struggle and at least learn and grow from this unravelling as players. I admit at this moment it looks like we will have a new coach, and MTL and new Team. Good thing is, most AD's don't not support "Their" guy.

    YES, Moos did stop me working with Cook. The Policy is "NO OUTSIDE CONSULTANT/VOLUNTEERS for ALL HUSKER ATHLETICS". SE Started the Policy and Bill Moos has upheld it, all tho Bill has caused some consternation by allowing Cook to use a private Nutritionist this year for his Team, and SF "The Program". There are several "exceptions, or look the other way, or we have no clue" that cause friction down there. I think you can agree if you are going to have a policy then enforce it equally or adjust it, cause that can create a toxic environment. SE laid down that POLICY with a mighty fist, and then proceeded to pound any coach that questioned it, all while pimping MR and "the tackling guy" or bringing in John Gordon to motivate in one time speeches. Everyone in the fan base loved that stuff, until they didn't. Meanwhile he systematically dismantled support networks on the inside and cut off the outside, in the power vacuum left by SE people from that era have gotten more responsibility and influence that have bad track records in their roles in the AD. So yeah, Bill Moos has his work cut out for him, and I am hoping that as Husker Nation goes forward he figures this out because it is an important piece of the pie in order to get where he says he wants us to go as do all of us fans. I don't buy "I was busy hiring Frost" and "I am doing a review" and we ARE and WILL provide everything our coaches need. Average, even mediocre organizations do that. Ones that blaze trails, MAKE things happen. But again, it is a mess and maybe he didn't expect that, maybe he is not up for the task, maybe he regrets coming here or maybe he will figure it out. I know he won't figure it out, if he keep listening to the in-house people that have been advising him thus far and I hope he is a honorable steadfast man, because if he is a "compromised Leader" this rocket ain't getting off the pad until another group comes in. It has always surprised me that with that many years and experience as an AD, knowing our Department was in shambles he didn't bring anyone with him? I find that strange, as almost all people that move into Executive positions in order to fix a major problem bring a good majority of their people with them. Bill should have a whole rolodex full of great administrators. Christ, SE thought he did. So, yeah I don't think this has anything to do with me personally or MBB. I think it has do with some incompetent/threatened/tenured acting people in the AD who advise Moos and a not very present AD. And if he has or had a hesitation with me participating with MBB, you are suggesting he was of the opinion to let it fail or it already had failed. Well, that is not the type leadership I am used to in winning organizations. Quite the opposite, support with all available resources until the fight is over WIN or LOOSE. Last I checked, the fight is still ongoing and I think that is what the AD and his whole department are paid to do. In this case, they haven't and he hasn't, maybe it is a one time mistake...it is prolly too late for MBB but all we can hope is the AD learns and grows and does it better in the future or this candle is not going to get lit.

    Of course, with extremely competent coaches (See John Cook, and hopefully SF) they can compete and win despite this crap. So one course of action is HIRE REALLY GREAT PEOPLE and get the hell out of the way. I won't' argue that can't work. It ain't the most efficient way or the best use of resources and can be madding and cut life-spans short of the people involved, but it can work. Maybe that is his plan. We will more than likely see in MBB, and you and I will be able to discuss in the coming years. Either way, I want this years team to finish strong and I want future MBB to be competing and grinding no matter who the HC is.

    Cheers.
     
  12. Jack Riggins

    Jack Riggins Stay Calm, and Carry On Husker Nation

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    Thanks for the shout out FB TRAP....was that to the the 0,1, or 2 hole? AGREE AGREE and AGREE. Lars and I have been going on this for a day and I think it is a great conversation. No right or wrong answers, just opinions which makes this cool. I spent years in the dark and was "Forbidden" to go near these platforms. So I might be taking my freedom a bit overboard as I like to splurge on Twitter and now here. Truth is the snow keeping from golfing is killing my mental health! :O O::O O: But if I can have as good and thoughtful discussion about all this crap as Lars and I are having I will enjoy message boards.
     
  13. LarstheRed

    LarstheRed Junior Varsity 5 Year Member

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    Implosions happen when you try to make huge changes, be it in culture, staff, traditions, whatever. When you have had some generally consistent flow in how a business is run, and then you bring in a new leader, who wants to bring in large numbers of new people with them to assist in an immediate culture change, good or bad, that's going to cause an implosion. I realize people complain about organizational nepotism, but it usually reduces the volatility when going through leadership changes.

    It's hard to fault anyone who felt our change to SE was truly out of left field. His methods were not cohesive with a large number of people within the system, and that meant disruption for all, and some substantial turnover. That's always a tough deal, especially in an organization that tightly knit. It was also a very obvious failure at nearly every level. Moos, for all his imperfections, is exactly the type I would have guessed we'd look at in replacing SE. Very football friendly, probably a bit old school, and could connect with our local fan base from a personality perspective. He may not be doing the job as well as some other candidates, and he obviously doesn't like certain outside assets participating at this point, but he was a good 'cleanser' to get the AD offices back into feeling a little more like they had the majority of the last 50 years. We can now bring in someone maybe a little more progressive in some of their thinking, and it won't be the culture shock it may have once been. Even if there were to be changes, the battle cry would no doubt be, 'he's different, but at least he's not Shawn Eichorst different', which will likely be acceptable.
     
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  14. MartyHuskerFan

    MartyHuskerFan Tired and True

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    I tried to have these discussions before the season started. Not exactly THESE discussions. But my point was simply that Miles was not building a consistent winner and that after this season he would have to start all over again. Any how, there was not much interest due to the focus on winning a couple games at the dance. This sucks and I am looking forward to a coach who can finally win at DONU.
     
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  15. Jack Riggins

    Jack Riggins Stay Calm, and Carry On Husker Nation

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    I concur, Moos is the type guy that would be brought in after SE and I don't think we need a PROGRESSIVE AD so to speak, but we need an AD that will look at PROGRESSIVE ideas around here, because outside support has been common place at NU for 30 years and it is common place at other great institutions. To think, you have all the resources in house and or the best is not good judgment nor is it giving your coaches and players a competitive advantage. It is doing the opposite, but hey in the end they have to go out and win or we all ask questions like "WHY, is this happening?" The AD and his staff are not above this type of analysis and questioning and IMO are at the forefront of "what should have been being asked over the course of all this craziness the last 20+ years, as well as now" "What are you doing different, and or developing in conjunction with your coaches to stabilize and grown NU back to relevance?" That is not just the coaches job. Selling seats and making a profit are not the same as creating an ass kicking culture. Generally the ass kicking culture comes before the seats and profit, but in our case it is reverse currently.
     

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