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Linemen Height

MadRat

God, Family, Football
2 Year Member
The staff is moving towards a new standard in the trenches with height being the factor Husker fans seem to latch on and question. In other posts it was brought up that arm length was more important. The point seemed to be more about reach than arm length, but very similar topics. And others brought up being a better rock (we referred to them as anchors) at some positions is better than athleticism. The scope of this thread is to debate what is really important about linemen being effective.

In my experience I've always enjoyed unpredictable pools of talent, having to get teams put together without the benefit of recruiting nor 5 years with the same guys. (If I work with the same guys more than a year they really show it.) So I'm not going to pretend my solutions work everywhere.

The number one talent I like to identify is raw speed. I'm not wasting a giant that runs a 4.5 40 at nose tackle, even if he is the best nose on the team. I know in practicality a lineman that can get 4.5 is hard to come by. And I also know he's the most dangerous type to pursue from the backside on the defense, and is likely a threat to score on offense with speed like that. So I'm going to identify speed anomalies and put them in places where speed is crucial. I also identify the best vertical leapers, broadjumpers, hill/stair climbers, and box runners for other roles. Athletes need to fill niches.

The next factor I'm going to access is hand position by a player. The guy that can consistently win getting to, and consistently maintain, hand position tells me a lot about the ability to play linemen. Arm length can play a factor and having longer arms than an opponent can be an advantage. Being taller can definitely be an advantage here, too. But without hand position then height is a liability.

Hand position doesn't take a certain type of hand. Size of hand is nice at wide receiver for obvious reasons, but it is not a prerequisite for being a good lineman. It may be a good indicator of natural HGH levels in a guy, but it's not a handicap to have smaller hands. I personally have longer fingers and broader palms than most people, but never saw any correlation with hand size. I've been whipped by guys with big and small hands alike.

And I believe athleticism is too valuable to pass using it at specific niches. But an interesting point someone made elsewhere was about being a better rock was important at nose. You do need your unmovable types somewhere on the defense. I'm going to refer to this guy as the 'anchor', not to be confused with the anchor position*. The 3-4 can actually move this anchor around. The 3-4 can position into countless other defenses. One of those can resemble the Oklahoma 5-2 that used three interior linemen. One guy played anchor on a side and the other two shot gaps. Or maybe you run a 6-2 goal-line with one anchor nose and one penetrator to read QB for sneaks/draws. The point is, an anchor type doesn't have to play alone at the nose. Being an anchor is a niche talent so use the talent where it helps.

I do not want to undersell height. Leverage advantages from height can easily overcome strength on key situations. However, the height is more a factor after hand position effectiveness. Athleticism always trumps in ways that can be utilized as niches. But if you get beat by hand position, we cannot utilize things like height and athleticism.

I'd like to hear thoughts from others. Good, bad, ugly, indifferent. I'm open to debate.
 

The staff is moving towards a new standard in the trenches with height being the factor Husker fans seem to latch on and question. In other posts it was brought up that arm length was more important. The point seemed to be more about reach than arm length, but very similar topics. And others brought up being a better rock (we referred to them as anchors) at some positions is better than athleticism. The scope of this thread is to debate what is really important about linemen being effective.

In my experience I've always enjoyed unpredictable pools of talent, having to get teams put together without the benefit of recruiting nor 5 years with the same guys. (If I work with the same guys more than a year they really show it.) So I'm not going to pretend my solutions work everywhere.

The number one talent I like to identify is raw speed. I'm not wasting a giant that runs a 4.5 40 at nose tackle, even if he is the best nose on the team. I know in practicality a lineman that can get 4.5 is hard to come by. And I also know he's the most dangerous type to pursue from the backside on the defense, and is likely a threat to score on offense with speed like that. So I'm going to identify speed anomalies and put them in places where speed is crucial. I also identify the best vertical leapers, broadjumpers, hill/stair climbers, and box runners for other roles. Athletes need to fill niches.

The next factor I'm going to access is hand position by a player. The guy that can consistently win getting to, and consistently maintain, hand position tells me a lot about the ability to play linemen. Arm length can play a factor and having longer arms than an opponent can be an advantage. Being taller can definitely be an advantage here, too. But without hand position then height is a liability.

Hand position doesn't take a certain type of hand. Size of hand is nice at wide receiver for obvious reasons, but it is not a prerequisite for being a good lineman. It may be a good indicator of natural HGH levels in a guy, but it's not a handicap to have smaller hands. I personally have longer fingers and broader palms than most people, but never saw any correlation with hand size. I've been whipped by guys with big and small hands alike.

And I believe athleticism is too valuable to pass using it at specific niches. But an interesting point someone made elsewhere was about being a better rock was important at nose. You do need your unmovable types somewhere on the defense. I'm going to refer to this guy as the 'anchor', not to be confused with the anchor position*. The 3-4 can actually move this anchor around. The 3-4 can position into countless other defenses. One of those can resemble the Oklahoma 5-2 that used three interior linemen. One guy played anchor on a side and the other two shot gaps. Or maybe you run a 6-2 goal-line with one anchor nose and one penetrator to read QB for sneaks/draws. The point is, an anchor type doesn't have to play alone at the nose. Being an anchor is a niche talent so use the talent where it helps.

I do not want to undersell height. Leverage advantages from height can easily overcome strength on key situations. However, the height is more a factor after hand position effectiveness. Athleticism always trumps in ways that can be utilized as niches. But if you get beat by hand position, we cannot utilize things like height and athleticism.

I'd like to hear thoughts from others. Good, bad, ugly, indifferent. I'm open to debate.
Highlighted in black. Height and reach was discussed in the other thread. There is the Anomaly of the 6'3" guy with crazy long arms. But as a general rule tall guys have longer arms.

In Red: You may also notice that in addition to height they are going for high level wrestlers. Again as a general rule those guys have good hand strength and placement.

Other than that this is all very good AND very true. Well written. BTW my points were not meant to disagree but rather lend further detail to your comments.
 
Good post and good topic of discussion!

I like to look at shuttle times for interior linemen. If a big guy can move his feet that well, they can likely keep their feet and move on the interior with all the bodies flying around. People mentioned Aaron Donald in the other thread, and he had a 4.39 shuttle at 285 lbs for the combine. A recruit we recently offered, Logan Jones, also had a 4.39 shuttle at 245 in HS

Another number that I think is REALLY important for pass rushing defensive linemen is vertical jump. Remember reading a study about NFL DE prospects and vertical jump and it was a strong correlation... if you don't have the fast twitch and explosiveness to get into the air, you are less likely to beat offensive linemen off the snap, no matter how good your technique is.

The second is a bit different for us as our DE's are a lot like a DT in many situations, but a 3-4 LB can look a lot like a 4-3 DE. I'd love to have a Vic Beasley at LB for us or an Alvin Dupree (Dupree was a 4-3 DE and is now an OLB for the Steelers). Both of those guys are very explosive. -- funny, both of those guys grew up in Georgia.. wonder why we are recruiting there so much ;) ;)

But within all of that analysis, we need guys who can project to have the right size and strength attributes to play the position the way we want. I think the walk-on program gives us some flexibility there so that we can take chances on a few guys who may not fit all of the standard criteria, but who have outstanding athleticism otherwise - an Aaron Donald is a guy you want to take a chance on, if you feel you have some depth at DT so that you won't be left without options. Probably not as much taking chances now, but after the coaches feel we've built up some depth, I can see us taking more risks in order to get difference makers.
 



Acceleration, not top end speed, is desirable for linemen on either side. Closing speed helps on DL too, but I'd rather have a burst out of the gate. Just look at Dave Rimington or Ndamukong Suh. Fast off the line means you can throw an extra block (OL) or get deeper into the backfield (DL).
 
I think I finally can wrap my brain around this whole height thing for OL, when couched in terms of explosion, speed, and reach for finesse offenses vs. power offenses.

We are a finesse offense.
 
Acceleration, not top end speed, is desirable for linemen on either side. Closing speed helps on DL too, but I'd rather have a burst out of the gate. Just look at Dave Rimington or Ndamukong Suh. Fast off the line means you can throw an extra block (OL) or get deeper into the backfield (DL).

In a nutshell, you really want both. Ball carriers learn to fear big guys that can run. Pursuit tacklers that leave a mark are going to break a guy mentally. But quickness is something you really want out of everyone. It is somewhat teachable, because a lot of it is eliminating 'transitions' and 'decision making' by keeping a flow to habit forming activities. I kind of like to think I am ADHD because I like to push progress in practice and cover a lot of topics each day. I don't like people standing around no matter how large of group. Expect the players to stay in motion. Expect them to form habits that limit wasted time. It all lends itself to quickness.

However, there is another concept we call agility that is like quickness and speed together. But in reality it is all about generating raw excess power in movement. Fast players are not always good with agility because they lack excess power to do work. Some of your biggest players lack raw power, but enjoy excess strength. Strength, speed, and power all come together with agility. Running stairs, hills, and box runs really sort out the players with agility. The guys with the highest agility rank will often be your best ball carriers (if they have other traits like ball security) and linebackers. My most agile players have always been my leading scorers and tacklers, but this may not be true of everybody. The funny thing about these guys is that they come in so many unique shapes and sizes. Once had a porkly, short guy lead the team in tackles from a backside end spot. Although too short (and chunky) for most coaches, it did not deter him from leading the league. We are MOBILE - AGILE - HOSTILE.

I think I finally can wrap my brain around this whole height thing for OL, when couched in terms of explosion, speed, and reach for finesse offenses vs. power offenses.

We are a finesse offense.

From what I've seen from Frost's previous stint at UCF, I think he's a multiple-approach philosophy on offense, using niches to open up options. I enjoy his hiding a guy that can block in the offensive hands group, only to have the other team ignore them as a receiver and come back to the same guy when the D leaves him isolated against somebody. I may not be correct, but I believe Frost tries to play a sort of basketball approach, using 1v1 and 2v2 match ups to break big plays down the stretch. In the meanwhile, the opponent has to juggle all the possible uses of these players as he funnels quite a few guys in and out each play. It reminds me of Osborne and how he used to manage so many people college football created a whole new set of rules governing offenses in between plays.
 
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One thing that seems to be missing from all this analysis is MOTOR. All the tools and techniques can be overcome by a guy whose motor is constantly revving at a high rate vs. a guy who is not putting in the full effort consistently.
 




One thing that seems to be missing from all this analysis is MOTOR. All the tools and techniques can be overcome by a guy whose motor is constantly revving at a high rate vs. a guy who is not putting in the full effort consistently.
A high motor guy is nothing without size and technique. The top level players have it all.
 
One thing that seems to be missing from all this analysis is MOTOR. All the tools and techniques can be overcome by a guy whose motor is constantly revving at a high rate vs. a guy who is not putting in the full effort consistently.


Motoring
What's your price for flight
You've got him in your sight
And driving through the night
 
A high motor guy is nothing without size and technique. The top level players have it all.

So, you're saying this high motor guy should stop waiting for the recruiting call from the Huskers?

615ae61e86d00f44e3537d44f8a0d94d.jpg
 




We did have one slim guy. Don't think he was high motor nor did he have too much size, but his technique was lights out. NFL material, in fact.

alex-henery.jpg

Until he got the yips, then NFL no more, which is a big fat shame.
 

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