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What would Crouch’s draft stock have been in 2019?
- Thread starter WestTexasHusker
- Start date
He had no chance at QB then and it remains the same now. Couldn't throw NFL passes.
I'm sure Crouch would have had significantly better passing numbers in today's offenses, but he didn't have a strong arm. And he threw a ton of interceptions. 29 TD/25 INT career, 7 TD/10 INT his senior year. For comparison, Frazier was 43/11 career, 17/4 senior season. Gerry Gdowski -- who I think would be the best of Osborne's QBs in today's era of football -- 20/2 career, 19/2 senior (as that was really his only year of significant playing time). Also, Frazier and Gdowski averaged more yards passing per attempt than Crouch (Gdowski, by far the most of the three). All three of their completion percentages were about even (Gdowski still was the best of the three) -- though as you say, it was predicated mostly on downfield passing/mid-to-deep throws. I didn't mention Frost, but his numbers were more in line with Crouch. Gdowski was clearly the best passing quarterback -- as well as a solid runner (and outstanding pitch man).
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Accuracy and arm strength are obviously the most desirable, but no matter what accuracy is the key.
Greg Maddux had a long career in baseball because of his pin-point location, even with a sub-90 fastball in his later years. Crouch would be the baseball equivalent of a pitcher throwing 85 grooving balls down the middle of the plate.
We've always agreed on gdowski.
What about Joe Dailey ?
He definitely is not the same since his shoulder injuries and surgery.
Luck threw deeper balls with greater strength his first three seasons in the NFL.
In 2012, his first season, Luck's passes traveled an average of 10.3 yards. In 2015 -- a partial season prior to his first injury -- 9.6 yards.
This season -- his first season back after multiple shoulder injures on his throwing side (labrum and AC joint), his passes traveled an average of 7.4 yards.
Make that three who agree.
I was also always a big fan of Gdowski.
As for NFL QBs in the current era from the Osborne years, I'd put Steve Taylor at the top of the list with Turner Gill only slightly behind. Steve Taylor could have been a great pure passing QB who could scramble. He was so athletic that he was still All-American caliber, but he would have absolutely thrived in the Frost offense. Turner Gill, too, but he didn't have the NFL caliber arm and accuracy of Taylor.
If any of you don't remember Taylor as having that kind of arm, go back and rewatch the '87 UCLA game and either of the South Carolina games. For people who have never been an option QB, it is very difficult to comprehend how hard it is to take a solid hit on an option pitch on one play, then throw a pass on the next. The human body wasn't made to do those things back-to-back. In those games when Taylor (or Gill) were allowed to just toss the ball around wherever, you can see it. If they airmailed passes, rewind, and you'll find a sharp hit to their throwing arm a play or two earlier. It was incredibly tough to play QB in Osborne's offense.
As for NFL QBs in the current era from the Osborne years, I'd put Steve Taylor at the top of the list with Turner Gill only slightly behind. Steve Taylor could have been a great pure passing QB who could scramble. He was so athletic that he was still All-American caliber, but he would have absolutely thrived in the Frost offense. Turner Gill, too, but he didn't have the NFL caliber arm and accuracy of Taylor.
If any of you don't remember Taylor as having that kind of arm, go back and rewatch the '87 UCLA game and either of the South Carolina games. For people who have never been an option QB, it is very difficult to comprehend how hard it is to take a solid hit on an option pitch on one play, then throw a pass on the next. The human body wasn't made to do those things back-to-back. In those games when Taylor (or Gill) were allowed to just toss the ball around wherever, you can see it. If they airmailed passes, rewind, and you'll find a sharp hit to their throwing arm a play or two earlier. It was incredibly tough to play QB in Osborne's offense.
I recall Steve Taylor not having the mental make up of Gill or Frazier. He tended to panic and get happy feet and not make good decisions. That hurt him; TO from time to time would pull him, put in a sub (probably Gdowski) for a series or two, put Taylor back in, and he would proceed to light it up. Gill was the best, he could shake off a mistake (early in career), and make a great play. As time went by, he didn't make many errors. I pretty much only saw Taylor in big games, as those were all that were broadcast here in Texas. I remember that happening in the Sugar Bowl his Senior year. And I had seen it a number of times before.
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I completely agree about Gill's mental edge, but to me that's not a knock on Taylor. I don't think Gill had the pure arm talent that Taylor did.
I don't remember enough details about Taylor being yanked, so you might be right. My suspicion, then and now, was that he wasn't as comfortable with the physical side of being an option QB, but he overcame that with pure athleticism and determination. I think that he could have been a Mayfield/Murray type of play-maker if he had been expected to avoid taking hits and just make plays. He did have "happy feet" early on his career, but that was always the norm for a super athletic young QB in college because their entire high school resume had taught them to pull down the ball and run for it when in doubt, and good things would happen.
As for Taylor's senior year, he played Miami in the Orange Bowl, and he's talked openly since then of not being prepared for the type of team speed that they had. His junior year they played FSU in the Fiesta Bowl. His sophomore year they played LSU in the Sugar Bowl. Did you mean the 1987 Sugar Bowl or the 1989 Orange Bowl? I can't remember the details of how he played in either, but now I want to go watch them. At least I know that they'll win that Sugar Bowl.
Ahhh... you made me check my facts. Yes, it would have been his Sophomore year. And... funny thing is... the QB would have been who I thought I remembered... Clete Blakeman... somehow I got Gdowski in there... Interestingly, Blakeman didn't show up in the (abbreviated) stat lines. May have just been a series of handing off... But I thought TO handled Taylor real well; earlier in his career, TO tended IMO to be hard on QBs.
What I recall is he tended to have happy feet and then just take off an run on rollouts, so defenses would easily flush him and get him to run and not look downfield. Hurt the offense. I remember getting into a discussion with someone more knowledgeable (maybe a MABC) than me who got mad at TO for not doing as many roll-outs passes with Taylor. I argued that TO was correct because Taylor tended to give up too early on the pass. Taylor probably got better as his career progressed, but that was my primary impression.
Yes, he probably got better over his career, but I never felt his mental game was to the level of the rest of his abilities. But that is not uncommon, QB in NFL is 90% mental, the other half is Physical... I think that is what Yogi Berra said about Y.A. Tittle...
[edit] Thinking a bit more, I would agree that Taylor from a physical standpoint may have been one of the very best TO had at Nebraska. He would be ahead of Frazier on all passing and had a stronger arm than Gill. I am not sure overall he was still at NFL arm level (if so he probably would have been there) but he did well enough overall to have a good career in Canada. But I do think that he was behind in some aspects on the overall physical running talent and that is where he falls behind Frost, Crouch and maybe Lord. Overall team offense talent wasn't as high over his complete career as Gill, Frazier and Frost.
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I agree that he wasn't as good of a running QB as almost any of the others, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't incredibly athletic, fast, and elusive. If that had been channeled into scrambling while looking upfield, he would have thrived. That wasn't a part of the offense then. Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, and Johnny Manziel all had "happy feet," too, but they were trained to use their talents and instincts to take advantage of the offense. Doug Flutie, Fran Tarkenton, and many others made legendary NFL careers out of lesser talents than what Taylor had.
Do you remember how in the late Osborne years he modified the option to take advantage of Frost's running ability between the tackles? Solich built his entire offense around Crouch's running ability, for better or worse. The 80s Osborne didn't make broad adjustments for anyone that I can recall. He added plays, series, and different looks, but the base of his offense didn't evolve that much from Jeff Quinn to Mike Grant. Taylor was expected to take shots on the option, even in practice, and he just wasn't as rugged as Frost or Frazier were. I admire Osborne as much or more than any football coach who has ever lived, but he missed out on a lot of opportunities to use some talents that came through his system because he wanted the players to adapt to his system rather than vice versa. Barry Switzer was willing to drop the Wishbone and install the I-Formation when a once-in-a-lifetime talent like Marcus Dupree showed up. (That's obviously ironic in that Dupree transferred, but you get what I'm saying.) How did Osborne do that? Jeff Quinn ran the same plays, but he recruited Turner Gill because he was a better fit for his system. Quite honestly, I'm not sure how he got Steve Taylor.
As for Steve Taylor's professional ability, it was a severe handicap to spend your collegiate career as an option QB with no reps in practice at what a professional QB was expected to do. QBs aren't born able to read a defense; that's absorbed through years of coaching and film study. Keep in mind that schools like Miami and FSU wanted Tommie Frazier to be their pro-style QB, and he probably would have been developed quite well into that mold at those schools. Here's the best case that I can make for Stever Taylor: His chief national rival coming out of high school was Rodney Peete, who was also recruited as an option QB to USC. USC switched up their offense while he was there, and he adapted. He was a very good (not great) pro QB. Nobody in 1984-88 was saying that Rodney Peete had a better arm than Steve Taylor.
Interesting assessment. You may just be correct.
Makes you wonder how long AM stays.
Taylor didn't have the supporting cast the others had.
