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Thread: Right to die

  1. #41
    Heisman

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    condolences to you and your family. This is a thorny issue...I'm on the side of allowing those near the end of their lives to choose how they want to go rather than be at the mercy/decision of others. It is THEIR lives after all.

  2. #42

    Right to die

    I want to add that a DNR is just a start.

    There are many things that a person can stipulate in an advance directive.

    The Catholic Church has some wonderful material for people who want to be true to their faith and at the same time avoid unnecessary prolonged pain and suffering. Persons who are not Catholic can also benefit from the guidance and suggestions available on this topic from the Catholic Church.

    Jesus chose not to take affirmative actions that may have prolonged his life. He provides the ultimate guide as to how to accept the reality and the circumstances when God has called us.

  3. #43
    pray for me ;)
    ColoREDo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huskerwirejay View Post

    Jesus chose not to take affirmative actions that may have prolonged his life. He provides the ultimate guide as to how to accept the reality and the circumstances when God has called us.
    Thats all well and good for most in this country but to some of us this is irrelevant. Religion should also have no bearing on the law in this matter.
    Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.Bill Watterson, cartoonist, "Calvin and Hobbes"

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ColoREDo View Post
    Thats all well and good for most in this country but to some of us this is irrelevant. Religion should also have no bearing on the law in this matter.

    But asking a Doctor to violate an oath he took is O.K. Just to be clear what side of the fence are you on when it comes to capital punishment? Should a Dr. administer the drugs, if not then it could be "botched" and considered cruel and inhumane punishment.

    I am sorry for your lose, and will put in a good word to my Higher Power for you and your loved ones.

  5. #45
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    Very sorry to hear about your loss, REDo. That's a very painful issue to have to deal with.

  6. #46
    pray for me ;)
    ColoREDo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuskerMark View Post
    But asking a Doctor to violate an oath he took is O.K. Just to be clear what side of the fence are you on when it comes to capital punishment? Should a Dr. administer the drugs, if not then it could be "botched" and considered cruel and inhumane punishment.

    I am sorry for your lose, and will put in a good word to my Higher Power for you and your loved ones.
    To me it is cruel and inhumane to force a person to suffer longer than necessary.

    Any true doctor would want whats best for his/her patient.
    Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.Bill Watterson, cartoonist, "Calvin and Hobbes"

  7. #47
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    Redo, sorry to hear this. My heart felt condolence to you and your family.
    “Everybody thinks of changing humanity and nobody thinks of changing himself.” - Leo Tolstoy




  8. #48
    Heisman

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    REDo, just opened this thread for the first time. My heartfelt condolences go out to you and your family. I lost my dad just a little over a year ago, so I not only sympathize, but empathize from recent experience. Thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoREDo View Post
    I completely understand what you are saying but what I observed from my dad in his last 2 weeks was not anything that resembled a life. His life was already extinguished and all that remained was smouldering embers that had no hope of ever reigniting. It is my respect for life that leads me to believe that this was not close to the definition. He had a DNR set up but the problem is that his body didn't know how to get to that point. He wanted to die. He made that very clear and that was even before things got really bad. It killed me to look into his empty eyes when I tried to talk to him in his final days only to see a blank, unresponsive stare and labored breathing. Thoughts of helping him die went through my head constantly. No child should have to have those thoughts.
    My condolences REDo.
    I completely understand/agree with you. Went through the same thing with my dad a couple of years ago. He had developed sepsis, but with his Alzheimer's, the doc's suggested we just take him home and let the infection take him. Those last few days were awful.

    Afterwards, my brother and I recalled that years earlier when we were kids, he had given each of us the same lecture when he had caught us smoking. He said: "I may die a horrible and painful death, but it won't be because of smoking!"

    We looked at each other and said, "Well, I guess dad was right again." He always did have to have the last word.
    Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it.



  10. #50
    Oh my!
    Red_in_Blue_Land's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuskerMark View Post
    But asking a Doctor to violate an oath he took is O.K. Just to be clear what side of the fence are you on when it comes to capital punishment? Should a Dr. administer the drugs, if not then it could be "botched" and considered cruel and inhumane punishment.

    I am sorry for your lose, and will put in a good word to my Higher Power for you and your loved ones.
    I don't think that would be a doctor violating his oath, like I put in my original post, another form of palliative care.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." Ayn Rand

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  11. #51
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    One of the simple facts about dying and the dying is that there is no right or wrongs about the process. When I deal with this type of a situation I have a sit down meeting with the family and have a very frank discussion. The fact is that redo's Father had no viable options at meaningful recovery. It is a tough situation for the family and even for the doctor who has cared for him for years. Oxygen can be used as a drug. Continuing it prolongs the inevitable in many circumstances. I explain this to the family and offer them the chance to remove supplemental oxygen. Some families are comfortable with this and some aren't. Either way the patient may be comforted, with morphine for example, and eased out of this life. Being a doctor and having dealt with theses situations I can tell you that I have never stopped a persons heart but I have on multiple occasions allowed thier heart to stop. This may seem harsh to some on this board but giving comfort to the patient and secondly allowing the family the option to let them pass is of utmost importance. Most doctors I know do the same. Redo, your account of what went on with your Father almost brought me to tears. I pray that someday you are reunited with him as the strong and vital man you knew him as.

  12. #52
    pray for me ;)
    ColoREDo's Avatar
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    Once again, thanks for everyone's thoughts, prayers and kind words.
    Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.Bill Watterson, cartoonist, "Calvin and Hobbes"

  13. #53
    Heisman

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpaso View Post
    One of the simple facts about dying and the dying is that there is no right or wrongs about the process. When I deal with this type of a situation I have a sit down meeting with the family and have a very frank discussion. The fact is that redo's Father had no viable options at meaningful recovery. It is a tough situation for the family and even for the doctor who has cared for him for years. Oxygen can be used as a drug. Continuing it prolongs the inevitable in many circumstances. I explain this to the family and offer them the chance to remove supplemental oxygen. Some families are comfortable with this and some aren't. Either way the patient may be comforted, with morphine for example, and eased out of this life. Being a doctor and having dealt with theses situations I can tell you that I have never stopped a persons heart but I have on multiple occasions allowed thier heart to stop. This may seem harsh to some on this board but giving comfort to the patient and secondly allowing the family the option to let them pass is of utmost importance. Most doctors I know do the same. Redo, your account of what went on with your Father almost brought me to tears. I pray that someday you are reunited with him as the strong and vital man you knew him as.
    GREAT post, kpaso, that's the kind of Doc we should all have!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by kpaso View Post
    One of the simple facts about dying and the dying is that there is no right or wrongs about the process. When I deal with this type of a situation I have a sit down meeting with the family and have a very frank discussion. The fact is that redo's Father had no viable options at meaningful recovery. It is a tough situation for the family and even for the doctor who has cared for him for years. Oxygen can be used as a drug. Continuing it prolongs the inevitable in many circumstances. I explain this to the family and offer them the chance to remove supplemental oxygen. Some families are comfortable with this and some aren't. Either way the patient may be comforted, with morphine for example, and eased out of this life. Being a doctor and having dealt with theses situations I can tell you that I have never stopped a persons heart but I have on multiple occasions allowed thier heart to stop. This may seem harsh to some on this board but giving comfort to the patient and secondly allowing the family the option to let them pass is of utmost importance. Most doctors I know do the same. Redo, your account of what went on with your Father almost brought me to tears. I pray that someday you are reunited with him as the strong and vital man you knew him as.
    Excellent post and thanks for your compassion and service to your patients.

    Asking a doctor or other health professional to "stop the beating heart" of someone facing the end .... I think that's the line in the sand we don't want to cross.

    The scenario Kpaso describes is compassionate and accomplishes something very similar -- but in a way that allows the end to come naturally, without undo outside interference.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlack&Blue View Post
    Excellent post and thanks for your compassion and service to your patients.

    Asking a doctor or other health professional to "stop the beating heart" of someone facing the end .... I think that's the line in the sand we don't want to cross.

    The scenario Kpaso describes is compassionate and accomplishes something very similar -- but in a way that allows the end to come naturally, without undo outside interference.
    Absolutely. And thanks to kpaso for saying what I was struggling (but failing to say). The distinction between causing the heart to stop and allowing it to stop is a good way of putting where I believe the line should be drawn. And I certainly understand how increasing morphine in the final stages can hasten the process, but is also alleviates the pain. These must be very difficult issues for doctors to deal with, and it sounds like kpaso certainly has a very good understanding of how to deal with them compassionately.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Absolutely. And thanks to kpaso for saying what I was struggling (but failing to say). The distinction between causing the heart to stop and allowing it to stop is a good way of putting where I believe the line should be drawn. And I certainly understand how increasing morphine in the final stages can hasten the process, but is also alleviates the pain. These must be very difficult issues for doctors to deal with, and it sounds like kpaso certainly has a very good understanding of how to deal with them compassionately.
    When kpaso started his post, he said that within the process of dying there is no right or wrong. And with this I disagree. I believe that every human being has the divine right to be or not to be. If a person chooses to not prolong their life, their wishes should be respected. If the State can give dispensation for those who execute because of vindictiveness, then this same consideration should be granted to those who would administer a lethal dose of morphine to someone who requested it. The family should not have to decide...this is up to each and every individual. The State should not deny this. I agree with Redo right down the line on this issue and would like those who have a different opinion to follow their heart, but to not deny others their divine right...ie. butt out when it comes to voting. I will never forgive those who sent Kevorkian off to prison.

    PS...I do understand that Kpaso comes at this from a doctor's point of view...maybe it's time for an amendment to the Hippocratic oath.

  17. #57
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    Death is never nice...no matter how it is dished out.
    “Everybody thinks of changing humanity and nobody thinks of changing himself.” - Leo Tolstoy







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