The Ph.D. Now Comes With Food Stamps

[ShuckIt]

She needs to get him a job at her pharma company, then he can move to San Fran with her - which I think would improve their income, improve their quality of life, and decrease their cost of living (one home vs. two.) Boston vs. San Fran - yikes!

He needs to move to San Fran and golf everyday and have dinner ready for her when she gets home :-)

[Huskers57]

He needs to move to San Fran and golf everyday and have dinner ready for her when she gets home :-)

only a stone's throw away from Pebble Beach and Half-Moon Bay...

[FLA4NEB]

She needs to get him a job at her pharma company, then he can move to San Fran with her - which I think would improve their income, improve their quality of life, and decrease their cost of living (one home vs. two.) Boston vs. San Fran - yikes!

You would think but they don't seem to run much with common sense. Their current plan is for her to move back to Boston and find a teaching job. They are way upside down on their house in San Fran so they are going to look at renting it until the market improves. He lives with a bunch of grad students in Boston (has a small room, more or less actually lives in his lab when he is in Boston).

By brother is brilliant (IQ of 186) but lacks a lot of common sense and smarts when it comes to stuff outside field of expertise...think a bitter older unfunny version of Sheldon Cooper. He is also a big liberal and has no problem telling other people how to run their lives...while living one mess of a life himself.

[FLA4NEB]

He needs to move to San Fran and golf everyday and have dinner ready for her when she gets home :-)

I wouldn't wish that upon her...the family likes her more than him

[Smoke Eater]

"The media gives us this image that people who are on public assistance are dropouts, on drugs or alcohol, and are irresponsible," she says. "I'm not irresponsible. I'm highly educated. I have a whole lot of skills besides knowing about medieval history, and I've had other jobs. I've never made a lot of money, but I've been able to make enough to live on. Until now."

I thought this quote was interesting. She's currently working 20 hours a week. Is she using some of her other "skills" to work part time? Has she given thought to looking outside of teaching for employment? Being a teacher may be her passion, but that doesn't always guarantee that you can make a living at it. Golfing is my passion, but I won't be joining the PGA tour anytime soon.

[McKinneyTXHusker]

You would think but they don't seem to run much with common sense. Their current plan is for her to move back to Boston and find a teaching job. They are way upside down on their house in San Fran so they are going to look at renting it until the market improves. He lives with a bunch of grad students in Boston (has a small room, more or less actually lives in his lab when he is in Boston).

By brother is brilliant (IQ of 186) but lacks a lot of common sense and smarts when it comes to stuff outside field of expertise...think a bitter older unfunny version of Sheldon Cooper. He is also a big liberal and has no problem telling other people how to run their lives...while living one mess of a life himself.

So, to summarize, their current plan is for her to give up her $200k+ industry job, move back to Boston, and find a job more like his current $36k job?!?! Wow, you're correct, little or NO common sense there! But I guess as a big liberal, maybe they can take advantage of government aid like the other PhD is having to do!

[FLA4NEB]

So, to summarize, their current plan is for her to give up her $200k+ industry job, move back to Boston, and find a job more like his current $36k job?!?! Wow, you're correct, little or NO common sense there! But I guess as a big liberal, maybe they can take advantage of government aid like the other PhD is having to do!

and complain a lot about being under funded and not getting enoug benefits from the government.

I have encouraged him to move to China...then I got to her a rant about what is wrong there. Funny thing is he loves Isreal but is to scared to move there. Go figure.

[FeelLikeAStranger]

My brother has a phd in bio med and another phd in something similar. He runs a lab at Harvard and also lectures there (he also lectures in China and Isreal once or twice a year). He makes around 36k. His partner lives in San Fran, she is also a bio med phd and works for a pharma working in a lab (not running it) and she pulls in north of 200k.

The last time I talked with him he said that in a few years China would catch up to us in quality of graduates and than it would be next to impossible of them to find work at a living wage.

It doesn't matter what your phd is in the world is shifting below our feet faster than we could imagine.

If he's a tenure track prof, no way in hell is he only making $36K at Harvard. Now, if he's a postdoc/lab manager, that's sadly right on par. First year NIH postdoc scale is around $30K now...which is absolutely ridiculous in and of itself. Postdocs are the 'burger flippers' of science. They do the bulk of the research, 80-100+ hours a week, no bennies, and have to fight for the chance of getting a tenure track job somewhere, typically after multiple postdocs. This is how we 'value' our best scientific minds in this country...pay them less than a manager at a convenience store. 15 years ago I sent out at least 125 resumes, had 10ish phone interviews, one job offer for less than $30K in Moorhead, MN...full-time teaching AND a research program on top of that with no institutional support (e.g. Spend every waking moment writing grants). It was quite the depressing situation, and Oklahoma State was the biggest institution I was shooting for.

Thankfully, I did something I had never before considered...going into industry.

[Huskers57]

If he's a tenure track prof, no way in hell is he only making $36K at Harvard. Now, if he's a postdoc/lab manager, that's sadly right on par. First year NIH postdoc scale is around $30K now...which is absolutely ridiculous in and of itself. Postdocs are the 'burger flippers' of science. They do the bulk of the research, 80-100+ hours a week, no bennies, and have to fight for the chance of getting a tenure track job somewhere, typically after multiple postdocs. This is how we 'value' our best scientific minds in this country...pay them less than a manager at a convenience store. 15 years ago I sent out at least 125 resumes, had 10ish phone interviews, one job offer for less than $30K in Moorhead, MN...full-time teaching AND a research program on top of that with no institutional support (e.g. Spend every waking moment writing grants). It was quite the depressing situation, and Oklahoma State was the biggest institution I was shooting for.

Thankfully, I did something I had never before considered...going into industry.

very good information, I had some idea of these situations but it was much more clear after you posted...this is a problem america society needs to rectify.

[FLA4NEB]

If he's a tenure track prof, no way in hell is he only making $36K at Harvard. Now, if he's a postdoc/lab manager, that's sadly right on par. First year NIH postdoc scale is around $30K now...which is absolutely ridiculous in and of itself. Postdocs are the 'burger flippers' of science. They do the bulk of the research, 80-100+ hours a week, no bennies, and have to fight for the chance of getting a tenure track job somewhere, typically after multiple postdocs. This is how we 'value' our best scientific minds in this country...pay them less than a manager at a convenience store. 15 years ago I sent out at least 125 resumes, had 10ish phone interviews, one job offer for less than $30K in Moorhead, MN...full-time teaching AND a research program on top of that with no institutional support (e.g. Spend every waking moment writing grants). It was quite the depressing situation, and Oklahoma State was the biggest institution I was shooting for.

Thankfully, I did something I had never before considered...going into industry.

Yeah he isn't tenured or a a registered Professor. He would never consider going into industry because as he would say "he doesn't want to be a slave to some faceless corporation", which I respond "but you already are a slave to some faceless institution".

I am seeing him next week for a few days. It should be interesting....

By the way he has been working at Harvard for over 20 years. He makes extra money with his trips to Israel and China...I agree with your statement about how we value our scientific minds...truly sad but I bet we have different solutions to the problem.

[McKinneyTXHusker]

Yeah he isn't tenured or a a registered Professor. He would never consider going into industry because as he would say "he doesn't want to be a slave to some faceless corporation", which I respond "but you already are a slave to some faceless institution".

I am seeing him next week for a few days. It should be interesting....

By the way he has been working at Harvard for over 20 years. He makes extra money with his trips to Israel and China...I agree with your statement about how we value our scientific minds...truly sad but I bet we have different solutions to the problem.

Forgive me if I've misjudged the situation, but that statement makes me think he not only lacks common sense, but lacks much of any ambition or drive either.

[FLA4NEB]

Forgive me if I've misjudged the situation, but that statement makes me think he not only lacks common sense, but lacks much of any ambition or drive either.

His ambition is to get more government grants...

[ShuckIt]

His ambition is to get more government grants...

That should be easy just flub the labs and make it look like the world is ending and get more money.

[Huskermedic]

Absolutely nothing wrong with getting a PhD in medieval history, if that's what floats your boat. But to expect it to automatically result in a high-paying career is pretty naive, I'd say.

This, my Dad has been in higher education his entire working life and says this is a huge mistake students make all the time. He says they will go for the easiest phd and expect to get a high paying job with said phd.

That is not how it works.

[huskrthill]

Crap, I'm hoping my engineering master's degree that I'm working on will pay off. At least my company is paying for it, so no money out of my pocket and no debt at the end.

[huskernut]

Crap, I'm hoping my engineering master's degree that I'm working on will pay off. At least my company is paying for it, so no money out of my pocket and no debt at the end.

Good for you.

Long term trends aren't promising though. Engineering work will have one of the highest rates of offshoring penetration growth of any field over the next 10-15 years. Outside of selling to the American market, there are few jobs here that will provide income security going forward.

[FeelLikeAStranger]

Yeah he isn't tenured or a a registered Professor. He would never consider going into industry because as he would say "he doesn't want to be a slave to some faceless corporation", which I respond "but you already are a slave to some faceless institution".

I am seeing him next week for a few days. It should be interesting....

By the way he has been working at Harvard for over 20 years. He makes extra money with his trips to Israel and China...I agree with your statement about how we value our scientific minds...truly sad but I bet we have different solutions to the problem.

Sad, but common. Career postdoc...sounds like he's bought into that academic vs industry 'lie' big time and can't/wont get off the treadmill, mainly because he still believes he's going to hit the lottery. At least us corporate 'slaves' get paid and can have a life outside the lab.

That's the bullcrap that many researchers constantly feed their grad students to justify their own existence/choices. It's a form of academic snobbery, really. That, and "you have to work on something they tell you to/you're not interested in!!", or "they can fire you at any time!" Truth is, you almost never do research on anything you're interested in...unless of course it's a highly funded area that you are truly interested in, or you get really lucky. Plus, you are a slave to the grant cycle. Lose your grant and you can't keep a lab running. If you don't have tenure...guess what? They can fire you too. There are more companies than tenure-track positions for people without grant funding. Dont like the company? Find a different one. Unless you are in a top lab and have numerous good pubs (e.g. Science, Nature, Cell), you can just about give up on ever hitting it big. Once you do, you stop actually 'doing science' altogether and spend all your time writing grants and managing students/postdocs.

No one ever mentioned industry to me as even a possibility, and I had tunnel vision for teaching at a smaller school where I didn't have to do research...and even that became an impossibility as all the small schools started requiring research programs on top of a full time load. Truly, I did far more good for science as an application scientist with a company than I ever would have as a bench scientist or a PI writing grant after grant. I got to see a lot of the world I never expected to, had connections with some of the best scientists in the world, and made a lot more money with a helluva lot less stress. in academia, you can never just 'go home' and leave it behind. You rarely, if ever, discover anything cool, and if you do, you never ever really answer the 'big question' you are working on. There's very few times you even get to see progress.

In industry, I was able to drop everything and go home at night (when I wasnt traveling), and got paid pretty well. Now, I'm in sales, get paid as much as many of those profs I'm selling to, and have a life. I dont work 90 hour weeks or worry about getting a pub out to get a grant. Life outside academics is better than anyone would tell you in grad school. It's not for everyone...many scientists dont have the personality or social skills to do sales or support, but there are always jobs in R&D where you actually work in the lab.

My degree opened a lot of doors for me in industry and helps me as a salesman. I certainly didnt need the degree for the job I have, but it does give a level of credibility that I wouldnt have otherwise. But, there's no way I'd do it again if I had the choice.

[ShuckIt]

I thought this quote was interesting. She's currently working 20 hours a week. Is she using some of her other "skills" to work part time? Has she given thought to looking outside of teaching for employment? Being a teacher may be her passion, but that doesn't always guarantee that you can make a living at it. Golfing is my passion, but I won't be joining the PGA tour anytime soon.

This gives me an idea..........may have found my new PGA sponsor :-)

[FLA4NEB]

Sad, but common. Career postdoc...sounds like he's bought into that academic vs industry 'lie' big time and can't/wont get off the treadmill, mainly because he still believes he's going to hit the lottery. At least us corporate 'slaves' get paid and can have a life outside the lab.

That's the bullcrap that many researchers constantly feed their grad students to justify their own existence/choices. It's a form of academic snobbery, really. That, and "you have to work on something they tell you to/you're not interested in!!", or "they can fire you at any time!" Truth is, you almost never do research on anything you're interested in...unless of course it's a highly funded area that you are truly interested in, or you get really lucky. Plus, you are a slave to the grant cycle. Lose your grant and you can't keep a lab running. If you don't have tenure...guess what? They can fire you too. There are more companies than tenure-track positions for people without grant funding. Dont like the company? Find a different one. Unless you are in a top lab and have numerous good pubs (e.g. Science, Nature, Cell), you can just about give up on ever hitting it big. Once you do, you stop actually 'doing science' altogether and spend all your time writing grants and managing students/postdocs.

No one ever mentioned industry to me as even a possibility, and I had tunnel vision for teaching at a smaller school where I didn't have to do research...and even that became an impossibility as all the small schools started requiring research programs on top of a full time load. Truly, I did far more good for science as an application scientist with a company than I ever would have as a bench scientist or a PI writing grant after grant. I got to see a lot of the world I never expected to, had connections with some of the best scientists in the world, and made a lot more money with a helluva lot less stress. in academia, you can never just 'go home' and leave it behind. You rarely, if ever, discover anything cool, and if you do, you never ever really answer the 'big question' you are working on. There's very few times you even get to see progress.

In industry, I was able to drop everything and go home at night (when I wasnt traveling), and got paid pretty well. Now, I'm in sales, get paid as much as many of those profs I'm selling to, and have a life. I dont work 90 hour weeks or worry about getting a pub out to get a grant. Life outside academics is better than anyone would tell you in grad school. It's not for everyone...many scientists dont have the personality or social skills to do sales or support, but there are always jobs in R&D where you actually work in the lab.

My degree opened a lot of doors for me in industry and helps me as a salesman. I certainly didnt need the degree for the job I have, but it does give a level of credibility that I wouldnt have otherwise. But, there's no way I'd do it again if I had the choice.

You pretty much nailed it. I just don't under stand it.

[McKinneyTXHusker]

Sad, but common. Career postdoc...sounds like he's bought into that academic vs industry 'lie' big time and can't/wont get off the treadmill, mainly because he still believes he's going to hit the lottery. At least us corporate 'slaves' get paid and can have a life outside the lab.

That's the bullcrap that many researchers constantly feed their grad students to justify their own existence/choices. It's a form of academic snobbery, really. That, and "you have to work on something they tell you to/you're not interested in!!", or "they can fire you at any time!" Truth is, you almost never do research on anything you're interested in...unless of course it's a highly funded area that you are truly interested in, or you get really lucky. Plus, you are a slave to the grant cycle. Lose your grant and you can't keep a lab running. If you don't have tenure...guess what? They can fire you too. There are more companies than tenure-track positions for people without grant funding. Dont like the company? Find a different one. Unless you are in a top lab and have numerous good pubs (e.g. Science, Nature, Cell), you can just about give up on ever hitting it big. Once you do, you stop actually 'doing science' altogether and spend all your time writing grants and managing students/postdocs.

No one ever mentioned industry to me as even a possibility, and I had tunnel vision for teaching at a smaller school where I didn't have to do research...and even that became an impossibility as all the small schools started requiring research programs on top of a full time load. Truly, I did far more good for science as an application scientist with a company than I ever would have as a bench scientist or a PI writing grant after grant. I got to see a lot of the world I never expected to, had connections with some of the best scientists in the world, and made a lot more money with a helluva lot less stress. in academia, you can never just 'go home' and leave it behind. You rarely, if ever, discover anything cool, and if you do, you never ever really answer the 'big question' you are working on. There's very few times you even get to see progress.

In industry, I was able to drop everything and go home at night (when I wasnt traveling), and got paid pretty well. Now, I'm in sales, get paid as much as many of those profs I'm selling to, and have a life. I dont work 90 hour weeks or worry about getting a pub out to get a grant. Life outside academics is better than anyone would tell you in grad school. It's not for everyone...many scientists dont have the personality or social skills to do sales or support, but there are always jobs in R&D where you actually work in the lab.

My degree opened a lot of doors for me in industry and helps me as a salesman. I certainly didnt need the degree for the job I have, but it does give a level of credibility that I wouldnt have otherwise. But, there's no way I'd do it again if I had the choice.

Great post, FLAS, from someone who knows what he speaks of.

Interesting your comments on sales. I'm an electrical engineer by (undergrad) degree, and worked in real "electronics design" jobs for several years out of college. Then I had an opportunity to dip one foot in the "sales" pool as a Field Apps Engineer for National Semiconductor - basically the techie who accompanies the sales guy around on all their calls to explain to the customer just what the products are, how they work and why you should use them vs. the competition.

After about 10 years of that, with several companies, I started looking at what I was making vs. what the sales guys I was accompanying were making, and decided I could do what they were doing at least as well as they could, so I put the other foot firmly in the sales field, and that's where I've been now for the last 10 years or so. Interestingly, several of my "engineer buddies" from college still look down their noses at me, remarking that I'm "just a sales guy." They're right, I'm just a sales guy and probably making at least double what they make - woe is me!