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Thread: For the record, I am 100% behind Coach Brown...

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pops View Post
    Wouldn't call you one at all. Then you are not taking a public Podiem and trying to convince people of your message. I have my own things I have to deal with, now if I tried to convince you into my way of thinking that is where I believe we cross the line
    So I have to keep my opinions to myself because they differ from others? Ron Brown's opinions are based on the Bible and what he believes and as a citizen, he has the right to say them without fear of false claims of something he isn't. Podium or not, people are entitled to their beliefs. Sure, he may get shouted down or debated, but a bigot, he most certainly is not. To me, being a bigot is a person who forms his/her opinion with hatred as a key component. As much as people really want to believe RB hates homosexuals, that just isn't the case. If given the right situation, I too would take the podium and speak about my beliefs and opinions based on my faith. Granted, I might pick my battles and choice of address a little better.

    COrrect me if I am wrong, Pops, but you seems you are labeling RB based on the fact that he tells others how he believes and tries to give guidance based on those beliefs. You don't have to agree with him, but again, I think the "bigot" label is a pretty weighty thing to slap on someone who happens to be a very caring and compassionate person.

    Good talk Pops!
    I used to have superpowers.....but my therapist took them away...

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    There's been tons of edits. And, man using his base instinct to determine morality is even more prehistoric than the good book.

    Ultimately, to Christians, the Bible is the Word of God as interpreted by man...across time...and across multiple translations. Discrepancy often has to do with interpretation...no different than secular society needing a judge, attorneys, and juries to try and interpret it's laws.

    Why are some secular laws enforced and others not?
    Edits? To the word of God? How can man possibly edit the word of God?

    Also, how does man interpret the word of God? Does he interpret the word to fit his wishes...what he wants it to say to him?

    Secular laws change all the time. New laws created. Old ones thrown out. I don't see, or haven't seen, that type of flexibility with the Bible. It's the word of God. I'd assume that only God, himself, can make those changes. No?
    "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson)
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  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogahusker View Post
    So I have to keep my opinions to myself because they differ from others? Ron Brown's opinions are based on the Bible and what he believes and as a citizen, he has the right to say them without fear of false claims of something he isn't. Podium or not, people are entitled to their beliefs. Sure, he may get shouted down or debated, but a bigot, he most certainly is not. To me, being a bigot is a person who forms his/her opinion with hatred as a key component. As much as people really want to believe RB hates homosexuals, that just isn't the case. If given the right situation, I too would take the podium and speak about my beliefs and opinions based on my faith. Granted, I might pick my battles and choice of address a little better.

    COrrect me if I am wrong, Pops, but you seems you are labeling RB based on the fact that he tells others how he believes and tries to give guidance based on those beliefs. You don't have to agree with him, but again, I think the "bigot" label is a pretty weighty thing to slap on someone who happens to be a very caring and compassionate person.

    Good talk Pops!
    Merriam Webster defines bigotry as follows:

    a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

    I don't think Ron Brown meets that definition. I will say, however, that going to a public hearing to not only argue that people should have the right to discriminate against gay employees, but that people who might feel otherwise will be incurring God's wrath, is getting very close to the line. Coach Brown's position may not be predicated on hatred, but there is certainly a fair amount of intolerance in arguing that discrimination against gays should be legal because the Bible condemns the lifestyle as sinful.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  4. #94
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    I wonder how this world would be these days if the Bible didn't exist.

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Huskers57 View Post
    I wonder how this world would be these days if the Bible didn't exist.
    I wonder how many licks it takes to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop.

    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by The Impaler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    We can, and do. I'd argue the Bible is based on discourse and reason not only far ahead of it's time, but still very valid today. In the end, secular society also seeks to standardize its morals and values, through laws, publications, entertainment, etc...just as Christians have done with the Bible and tradition.

    When I say no more or less valid, I mean on a sociological level. On a personal level, obviously I feel Christianity is the better guide for me and my family, just as non-believers feel that a secular view is better for themselves personally.
    Ron Brown apparently doesn't.

    Regarding your last paragraph, I posted in one of the other threads that I think a society can come to the same conclusions secularly as with religion. In fact, I would argue that religion "evolving" isn't based on religion at all, but a shift in more secular ideas and then reinterpretation of the Bible to reconcile. But back to the secularism, can you not agree that living in a society where murder, theft, rape, discrimination, etc. are not tolerated is more desirable than not whether or not there is a God? That's my whole point with secularism. It's about asking yourself how you want things to be, sure, there will be some nut jobs out there that would say they want murder to be legal but they wouldn't be in the majority wouldn't you agree?
    Even a secularist might advocate for issues they believed for or against based on the personal convictions...that's perfectly understandable to me.

    As for your other point, you seem to be suggesting that secularism will always result in a moral decision superior to that of the faithful. I don't necessarily think so.

    Secular scholars advocated eugenics as a valid approach to societal ills. It was part of many countries public health policies. Only after the atrocities of WW II and the Nazi use of American eugenics studies as rationale did the field begin to die out.

    So, while I believe secular moralism is important to creating acceptance of values and behaviors beneficial to society, I don't trust it to be the sole decision maker on right and wrong. I believe faith forces us to look at deeper meaning and purpose absent from a strictly secular viewpoint.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by redmachine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    There's been tons of edits. And, man using his base instinct to determine morality is even more prehistoric than the good book.

    Ultimately, to Christians, the Bible is the Word of God as interpreted by man...across time...and across multiple translations. Discrepancy often has to do with interpretation...no different than secular society needing a judge, attorneys, and juries to try and interpret it's laws.

    Why are some secular laws enforced and others not?
    Edits? To the word of God? How can man possibly edit the word of God?

    Also, how does man interpret the word of God? Does he interpret the word to fit his wishes...what he wants it to say to him?

    Secular laws change all the time. New laws created. Old ones thrown out. I don't see, or haven't seen, that type of flexibility with the Bible. It's the word of God. I'd assume that only God, himself, can make those changes. No?
    Check the wiki for Biblical Inspiration for a primer. There are differing views on this, just as secularists differ in the interpretation and application of secular values.

  8. #98
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    the homoerectus species did just fine without religion although they died out but I'll bet it was much more peaceful back then, sure the struggles to live were tougher but at least they didn't have the verbal jousts about who had the better God.

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Huskers57 View Post
    the homoerectus species did just fine without religion although they died out but I'll bet it was much more peaceful back then, sure the struggles to live were tougher but at least they didn't have the verbal jousts about who had the better God.
    Yeah, they didn't just crack a skull open to get what they needed...and rape? What rape? Stronger person gets what they want...nothing wrong with that.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huskers57 View Post
    the homoerectus species did just fine without religion although they died out but I'll bet it was much more peaceful back then, sure the struggles to live were tougher but at least they didn't have the verbal jousts about who had the better God.
    They wouldn't have died out if they had found God.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Yeah, they didn't just crack a skull open to get what they needed...and rape? What rape? Stronger person gets what they want...nothing wrong with that.
    how do you know about this if it occurred? did you take a time machine into the past?

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Something has got to give, here. You can't both be right.
    We can. And we are.

    1. My post was in reference to the OP and RB's personal beliefs, i.e.: Sin A is bad and cannot be tolerated, but we can look past Sin B in our society.
    2. Chi's posts concerns legislation in the context of Constitutional frame of reference.

    One post concerns the teachings of Christianity; one post concerns the framework of government.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Even a secularist might advocate for issues they believed for or against based on the personal convictions...that's perfectly understandable to me.

    As for your other point, you seem to be suggesting that secularism will always result in a moral decision superior to that of the faithful. I don't necessarily think so.
    First off, never said it will result in a morally superior decision, and secondly, I guess you missed this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Impaler
    Regarding your last paragraph, I posted in one of the other threads that I think a society can come to the same conclusions secularly as with religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Secular scholars advocated eugenics as a valid approach to societal ills. It was part of many countries public health policies. Only after the atrocities of WW II and the Nazi use of American eugenics studies as rationale did the field begin to die out.

    So, while I believe secular moralism is important to creating acceptance of values and behaviors beneficial to society, I don't trust it to be the sole decision maker on right and wrong. I believe faith forces us to look at deeper meaning and purpose absent from a strictly secular viewpoint.
    Never said that scularism will always arrive at the best decision, or won't make mistakes or that attitudes/opinions on things won't change. That's clearly been demonstrated throughout the history of man of all ilks (Chritian, Muslim, secular, etc). As far as "right", "wrong", "moral", "immoral" I don't really believe in those concepts in the biblical sense I guess. Not on a cosmic level anyway. There are certainly behaviors that I see as beneficial to mankind and those that aren't, so in that sense I believe in those terms.

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan

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  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by The Impaler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Even a secularist might advocate for issues they believed for or against based on the personal convictions...that's perfectly understandable to me.

    As for your other point, you seem to be suggesting that secularism will always result in a moral decision superior to that of the faithful. I don't necessarily think so.
    First off, never said it will result in a morally superior decision, and secondly, I guess you missed this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Impaler
    Regarding your last paragraph, I posted in one of the other threads that I think a society can come to the same conclusions secularly as with religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Secular scholars advocated eugenics as a valid approach to societal ills. It was part of many countries public health policies. Only after the atrocities of WW II and the Nazi use of American eugenics studies as rationale did the field begin to die out.

    So, while I believe secular moralism is important to creating acceptance of values and behaviors beneficial to society, I don't trust it to be the sole decision maker on right and wrong. I believe faith forces us to look at deeper meaning and purpose absent from a strictly secular viewpoint.
    Never said that scularism will always arrive at the best decision, or won't make mistakes or that attitudes/opinions on things won't change. That's clearly been demonstrated throughout the history of man of all ilks (Chritian, Muslim, secular, etc). As far as "right", "wrong", "moral", "immoral" I don't really believe in those concepts in the biblical sense I guess. Not on a cosmic level anyway. There are certainly behaviors that I see as beneficial to mankind and those that aren't, so in that sense I believe in those terms.
    Semantics at that point. It's agreeing on what those are that usually result in disagreement or conflict....at least when you remove the crazies, zealots and extremists.

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Huskers57 View Post
    the homoerectus species did just fine without religion although they died out but I'll bet it was much more peaceful back then, sure the struggles to live were tougher but at least they didn't have the verbal jousts about who had the better God.
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