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Thread: For the record, I am 100% behind Coach Brown...

  1. #76
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    http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7...-condemns-gays

    "Ron Brown can think whatever he wants," Major says. "I just don't want him to put up barriers in my life. Just allow me to get a job I deserve. Just don't get me fired. I don't have to report to Ron Brown at the pearly gates."

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    So he is wrong in saying that being a Christian doesn't give one license to discriminate, because a Christian employer may. Right?
    No. I think you are trying to manufacture a disagreement where none exists. I, as a Catholic business owner, cannot and should not be allowed to discriminate against gay people. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, ought to be able to choose priests who are male and celibate because that is what the Church's religious beliefs dictate. Generally, a church, unlike a secular employer, should have the right to employ people who belong to its faith and subscribe to the tenets of that faith. The Hosanna-Tabor case is pretty clear in this regard.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Now, be honest...what gets ridiculed more on here? Christianity or secularism?
    Totally missed the point. Secularism is, in you own words, NO LESS valid than religon. So, the question would be, if you agree that they both have more or less the same merit that they both must really come down to basic instinct and reason? If that's the case, why use the Bible at all? Why can't we just flesh this stuff all out culturally and thru discourse and reason?

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan

    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)" - Eddie Izzard



  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    If you're talking about the exemption for religious employers, I suspect that Basil and I would be on the same page. The exemption is constitutionally mandated by the Free Exercise clause.
    This is actually my problem with the ordinance. If you can exempt certain groups from it, how can you force others to abide by it? How can you tell a church that they can base employment decisions on sexual orientation and gender identity, yet not allow all businesses to do the same? What if a devout follower of that church runs a small business? Should he not be allowed the same religious protections as the organization he belongs to?

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by redmachine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    To say that the Bible and Christians have not adapted over the years is absurd. Just one example, people have said "Bible ok'd slavery", yet the civil rights movement in America was led by Christians.

    Again, if I characterized secularists as simply using base instinct as cave men did thousand of years ago, would that be accurate? Because, man just doing what he feels is right or wrong is also thousands of years old. But, that wouldn't be a true or fair characterization of secular beliefs would it?
    I agree...the civil rights movement, and, as Chi mentioned, the abolitionist movement pre-Civil War, were both strongly Christian movements.

    My point is, why no change in the word of God? Why is the Bible, an ancient text, still used? Can we get an edit here? Also, if it's all the word of God, why can some passages be taken and some excluded?

    Man doing what he wants or not doesn't have an ancient written book that supposedly describes the permitted/prohibited acts one is to follow/believe.
    There's been tons of edits. And, man using his base instinct to determine morality is even more prehistoric than the good book.

    Ultimately, to Christians, the Bible is the Word of God as interpreted by man...across time...and across multiple translations. Discrepancy often has to do with interpretation...no different than secular society needing a judge, attorneys, and juries to try and interpret it's laws.

    Why are some secular laws enforced and others not?

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke Eater View Post
    This is actually my problem with the ordinance. If you can exempt certain groups from it, how can you force others to abide by it? How can you tell a church that they can base employment decisions on sexual orientation and gender identity, yet not allow all businesses to do the same? What if a devout follower of that church runs a small business? Should he not be allowed the same religious protections as the organization he belongs to?
    Businesses of 15 employees or less are exempted. If you run a business larger than that, then you should be required to abide by the laws prohibiting discrimination. There is often tension between different amendments to the Constitution, in this case between The Free Exercise Clause and the Equal Protection Clause. The balance that the courts have struck, allowing churches and very small businesses to not have to comply but requiring compliance by everyone else, makes a great deal of sense to me.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by The Impaler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Now, be honest...what gets ridiculed more on here? Christianity or secularism?
    Totally missed the point. Secularism is, in you own words, NO LESS valid than religon. So, the question would be, if you agree that they both have more or less the same merit that they both must really come down to basic instinct and reason? If that's the case, why use the Bible at all? Why can't we just flesh this stuff all out culturally and thru discourse and reason?
    We can, and do. I'd argue the Bible is based on discourse and reason not only far ahead of it's time, but still very valid today. In the end, secular society also seeks to standardize its morals and values, through laws, publications, entertainment, etc...just as Christians have done with the Bible and tradition.

    When I say no more or less valid, I mean on a sociological level. On a personal level, obviously I feel Christianity is the better guide for me and my family, just as non-believers feel that a secular view is better for themselves personally.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke Eater View Post
    This is actually my problem with the ordinance. If you can exempt certain groups from it, how can you force others to abide by it? How can you tell a church that they can base employment decisions on sexual orientation and gender identity, yet not allow all businesses to do the same? What if a devout follower of that church runs a small business? Should he not be allowed the same religious protections as the organization he belongs to?
    Businesses of 15 employees or less are exempted. If you run a business larger than that, then you should be required to abide by the laws prohibiting discrimination. There is often tension between different amendments to the Constitution, in this case between The Free Exercise Clause and the Equal Protection Clause. The balance that the courts have struck, allowing churches and very small businesses to not have to comply but requiring compliance by everyone else, makes a great deal of sense to me.
    100% on this post.

    Common Sense Party 2016???

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    100% on this post.

    Common Sense Party 2016???
    I'd like to help you get the CSP started.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Huskers57 View Post
    I'd like to help you get the CSP started.
    Shouldn't it be the DCSP, or the CDSP, party?
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Shouldn't it be the DCSP, or the CDSP, party?
    well...I kinda already had a good idea about the MOTTO of the party...but you probably know what it is...

  12. #87
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    Can one actually go on the record via an anonymous post?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Shouldn't it be the DCSP, or the CDSP, party?

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    We can, and do. I'd argue the Bible is based on discourse and reason not only far ahead of it's time, but still very valid today. In the end, secular society also seeks to standardize its morals and values, through laws, publications, entertainment, etc...just as Christians have done with the Bible and tradition.

    When I say no more or less valid, I mean on a sociological level. On a personal level, obviously I feel Christianity is the better guide for me and my family, just as non-believers feel that a secular view is better for themselves personally.
    Ron Brown apparently doesn't.

    Regarding your last paragraph, I posted in one of the other threads that I think a society can come to the same conclusions secularly as with religion. In fact, I would argue that religion "evolving" isn't based on religion at all, but a shift in more secular ideas and then reinterpretation of the Bible to reconcile. But back to the secularism, can you not agree that living in a society where murder, theft, rape, discrimination, etc. are not tolerated is more desirable than not whether or not there is a God? That's my whole point with secularism. It's about asking yourself how you want things to be, sure, there will be some nut jobs out there that would say they want murder to be legal but they wouldn't be in the majority wouldn't you agree?

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan

    "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)" - Eddie Izzard



  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    There's been tons of edits. And, man using his base instinct to determine morality is even more prehistoric than the good book.

    Ultimately, to Christians, the Bible is the Word of God as interpreted by man...across time...and across multiple translations. Discrepancy often has to do with interpretation...no different than secular society needing a judge, attorneys, and juries to try and interpret it's laws.

    Why are some secular laws enforced and others not?
    Reminds me of the childhood game of kids sitting in a circle. First kid whispers something to the second kid, who repeats what they heard to the third and so on until the last kid tells the group what he heard, which is typically quite different from the original comment. I've often thought the Bible must surely have undergone similar shifts in interpretation over the centuries.
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