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Thread: Ron Brown issue/discussion wonderfully articulated...

  1. #46
    God of Huskermax

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlack&Blue View Post
    A few of the regular posters over there jumped in on a RB thread. I knew RP was on vacation when he didn't jump in and skewer the newbies.
    I was feeling charitable!!!! And I was feeling a strange sense of disconnect.....

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskrdavey View Post
    To clear the record. 1st off.. I'm not a homophobe. 2nd. I have a couple close friends that are homosexuals. I honestly do NOT care what they do in the privacy of their own home. One believes that he should not be discriminated against and should be equal to everyone.....the other actually thinks its "taking advantage of a situation" to use his sexual preference as a means to be put on equal ground via the law. To him, he believes he has made a choice and that he wasn't born with it. In fact...he would say that he leans more towards being "bi-sexual". Should that "GROUP" (Bi-Sexuals) not be discriminated against? Where does it stop?

    My concern is what we as a society deem as acceptable BEHAVIOR via the court of law. It's going down the wrong road.
    You would prefer the more discriminatory road then?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Social norms should never dictate acceptable practices. We are not a theocracy. There should be a secular rationale for every law on the books.
    Cannibalism is perfectly rational to the cannibal. Secular rationale can always be disputed/argued. Even if you agree on the reason (consent) one can argue the true age of consent. Social norms are the "established" rationale for acceptable practice and thus acceptable practice can change for any reason.

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by hskrdavey View Post
    To clear the record. 1st off.. I'm not a homophobe. 2nd. I have a couple close friends that are homosexuals. I honestly do NOT care what they do in the privacy of their own home. One believes that he should not be discriminated against and should be equal to everyone.....the other actually thinks its "taking advantage of a situation" to use his sexual preference as a means to be put on equal ground via the law. To him, he believes he has made a choice and that he wasn't born with it. In fact...he would say that he leans more towards being "bi-sexual". Should that "GROUP" (Bi-Sexuals) not be discriminated against? Where does it stop?

    My concern is what we as a society deem as acceptable BEHAVIOR via the court of law. It's going down the wrong road.
    In terms of whether a particular group is entitled to protection from discrimination, I look at two factors:

    1.) Has the group historically been subjected to systemic discrimination?

    2.) Is there a reasonable justification for discriminating against that group?

    To me, it's pretty clear that homosexuals have been systemically discriminated against, and there is no reasonable justification for doing so. To me, the burden of proof is on the Ron Browns of the world to justify the discrimination, and the law traditionally doesn't look favorably upon "that's the way it has always been" as a legitimate justification. Ron Brown of all people should understand why that is the case. Moreover, just as the state cannot force people with religious convictions to act contrary to those convictions, people with religious convictions cannot force people who do not share their beliefs to act in accordance with their convictions. It is a two way street.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by OmaHusker View Post
    Cannibalism is perfectly rational to the cannibal. Secular rationale can always be disputed/argued. Even if you agree on the reason (consent) one can argue the true age of consent. Social norms are the "established" rationale for acceptable practice and thus social norms can change for any reason.
    Gee, I wonder if there might be a secular rationale for outlawing cannibalism. What do you think?
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskrdavey View Post
    To clear the record. 1st off.. I'm not a homophobe. 2nd. I have a couple close friends that are homosexuals. I honestly do NOT care what they do in the privacy of their own home. One believes that he should not be discriminated against and should be equal to everyone.....the other actually thinks its "taking advantage of a situation" to use his sexual preference as a means to be put on equal ground via the law. To him, he believes he has made a choice and that he wasn't born with it. In fact...he would say that he leans more towards being "bi-sexual". Should that "GROUP" (Bi-Sexuals) not be discriminated against? Where does it stop?

    My concern is what we as a society deem as acceptable BEHAVIOR via the court of law. It's going down the wrong road.
    Why should anyone NOT be on equal ground via the law? Why should anyone engaged in consensual relationships with other adults be subject to discrimination for simply that reason? Why can't society, through laws, state emphatically: bigoted and discriminatory behavior is bad.

    As far as your concerns about society deeming homosexual behavior "acceptable," what do you find unacceptable about it? What do you fear when it comes to homosexuals?
    "We need education in the obvious more than investigation of the obscure."

    "If you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."

    “A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.”

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Gee, I wonder if there might be a secular rationale for outlawing cannibalism. What do you think?
    consent?

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by cm husker View Post
    Society acknowledging that two people of the same sex can have a consensual, fulfilling and beneficial relationship by outlawing discrimination based on homosexuality isn't a step on a logic progression line toward society accepting non-consensual relationships between adults and children.

    They aren't even in the same sport, let alone league.
    It is not in the same ballpark. In fact, it is not in the same solar system that has the planet with the continent and the country and the city that contains the ballpark in question.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by OmaHusker View Post
    consent?

    Holy cow, I think we've achieved a breakthrough.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskrdavey View Post
    To clear the record. 1st off.. I'm not a homophobe. 2nd. I have a couple close friends that are homosexuals. I honestly do NOT care what they do in the privacy of their own home. One believes that he should not be discriminated against and should be equal to everyone.....the other actually thinks its "taking advantage of a situation" to use his sexual preference as a means to be put on equal ground via the law. To him, he believes he has made a choice and that he wasn't born with it. In fact...he would say that he leans more towards being "bi-sexual". Should that "GROUP" (Bi-Sexuals) not be discriminated against? Where does it stop?

    My concern is what we as a society deem as acceptable BEHAVIOR via the court of law. It's going down the wrong road.
    Also, I think it speaks volumes that you feel the need to publicly declare you aren't a homophobe, when no one has said that you were, and that you also have a couple gay friends......

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmaHusker View Post
    Cannibalism is perfectly rational to the cannibal. Secular rationale can always be disputed/argued. Even if you agree on the reason (consent) one can argue the true age of consent. Social norms are the "established" rationale for acceptable practice and thus acceptable practice can change for any reason.
    How old was Mary when she was to be married? Obviously biblically based moralists believe the bible shouldn't be taken literally.

    Why the constantly shifting standards?
    "We need education in the obvious more than investigation of the obscure."

    "If you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."

    “A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.”

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Holy cow, I think we've achieved a breakthrough.
    Really? So if I consent to being consumed by cannibals, that's ok?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cm husker View Post
    How old was Mary when she was to be married? Obviously biblically based moralists believe the bible shouldn't be taken literally.

    Why the constantly shifting standards?
    Age of consent in bible was not an "all timesies rule", only a "part timesies rule".

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by OmaHusker View Post
    Really? So if I consent to being consumed by cannibals, that's ok?
    I think that would make the vast pro-cannibalism movement in this country very happy. I mean, there really are so many people out there just waiting to be fried up and served with chips, if only the law would allow it. If we outlaw discrimination against gays, next in line is the legalization of pedophilia and cannibalism.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPhoenix View Post
    Also, I think it speaks volumes that you feel the need to publicly declare you aren't a homophobe, when no one has said that you were, and that you also have a couple gay friends......

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument
    Nope Sorry RP. Guess it was more of a gut reaction since most Left Wingers immediately move to the "Your a Homophobe" or "Your just scared of homosexuals...??" when you disagree with them on this subject... Typically that's how it works. So thought I'd beat them to the punch... (and I noticed I just made the post in time....(CM's "What do you fear when it come to homosexuals>....)





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