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Thread: Dan Savage Points Out Hypocrisy in the Bible-one R rated word in video

  1. #61
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    Good conversation.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by cm husker View Post
    Thanks for the info. I appreciate the clarifications and education on something I don't study closely.

    To answer one question, I only found that verse on homosexuals not inheriting because of the NC pastor thread (it was quoted in his blog as a translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11):

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
    Looking at that passage in the original greek as well as the overall context of the stuff that surrounds it, a couple of thoughts come to mind. First, there are two words in the greek that in the translation you quote get combined into one category "men who practice homosexuality." Most translations I've seen separate the two out--the NRSV for example, says "male prostitutes and sodomites." Those two words, malakoi and arsenekoi, were also the terms used for the two types of male prostitutes that would have been available at the Roman temple...without getting too graphic, one could either penetrate or be penetrated. Corinth, where this letter was addressed, would have been right in the middle of a culture that would have had male temple prostitutes as part of the temple cult. In the section after this, Paul directly mentions prostitution...the whole "your bodies are a temple of God...why would you unite them with a prostitute" passage. I think the passage as a whole is condemning not homosexuality itself, but the widespread practice of temple prostitution and the debauchery that would have been associated with fertility rites and such. In my reading, Paul is saying "for many of you, this was your former life...this was your former religious practice. But rather than drawing you closer to God, it was leading you further away."

    That's not an authoritative interpretation by any means, but it's my take on it at least.

    "Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence." 1 Peter 3:15-16 (NRSV)

  3. #63
    From what I have read, the meaning of the terms are still unknown and require inference...whether that inference is homosexuality or prostitution. The fact that prostitution is called out separately a few verses later and using a different term, would seem to suggest that the intention was not to mean prostitution...but meant to call out both participants in a male sexual relationship.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranHusker View Post
    Looking at that passage in the original greek as well as the overall context of the stuff that surrounds it, a couple of thoughts come to mind. First, there are two words in the greek that in the translation you quote get combined into one category "men who practice homosexuality." Most translations I've seen separate the two out--the NRSV for example, says "male prostitutes and sodomites." Those two words, malakoi and arsenekoi, were also the terms used for the two types of male prostitutes that would have been available at the Roman temple...without getting too graphic, one could either penetrate or be penetrated. Corinth, where this letter was addressed, would have been right in the middle of a culture that would have had male temple prostitutes as part of the temple cult. In the section after this, Paul directly mentions prostitution...the whole "your bodies are a temple of God...why would you unite them with a prostitute" passage. I think the passage as a whole is condemning not homosexuality itself, but the widespread practice of temple prostitution and the debauchery that would have been associated with fertility rites and such. In my reading, Paul is saying "for many of you, this was your former life...this was your former religious practice. But rather than drawing you closer to God, it was leading you further away."

    That's not an authoritative interpretation by any means, but it's my take on it at least.
    The New American Bible utilizes the term "boy prostitutes." It sure seems that "men who practice homosexuality" is a broad expansion of the actual word utilized.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranHusker View Post
    Looking at that passage in the original greek as well as the overall context of the stuff that surrounds it, a couple of thoughts come to mind. First, there are two words in the greek that in the translation you quote get combined into one category "men who practice homosexuality." Most translations I've seen separate the two out--the NRSV for example, says "male prostitutes and sodomites." Those two words, malakoi and arsenekoi, were also the terms used for the two types of male prostitutes that would have been available at the Roman temple...without getting too graphic, one could either penetrate or be penetrated. Corinth, where this letter was addressed, would have been right in the middle of a culture that would have had male temple prostitutes as part of the temple cult. In the section after this, Paul directly mentions prostitution...the whole "your bodies are a temple of God...why would you unite them with a prostitute" passage. I think the passage as a whole is condemning not homosexuality itself, but the widespread practice of temple prostitution and the debauchery that would have been associated with fertility rites and such. In my reading, Paul is saying "for many of you, this was your former life...this was your former religious practice. But rather than drawing you closer to God, it was leading you further away."

    That's not an authoritative interpretation by any means, but it's my take on it at least.
    The New American Bible utilizes the term "boy prostitutes." It sure seems that "men who practice homosexuality" is a broad expansion of the actual word utilized.
    But I think that's the point, "boy prostitute" is also just an interpretation but in the context of the rest of the general descriptions of behaviors, it would be odd to then get ultra specific. And the Greek actually used two terms...one for the male giver and one for the male receiver...are the generally accepted meanings, although some have interpreted that more specifically to apply to "male prostitutes".

  6. #66
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    I see nothing wrong with what he said. I think that which is irrational, illogical and contradictory should be treated with derision.

    I can acknowledge one's personal faith, and understand the need for it in some cases. But do not expect me to treat it, or any dogma for that matter, with intellectual respect. It doesn't deserve it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Husker View Post
    I see nothing wrong with what he said. I think that which is irrational, illogical and contradictory should be treated with derision.

    I can acknowledge one's personal faith, and understand the need for it in some cases. But do not expect me to treat it, or any dogma for that matter, with intellectual respect. It doesn't deserve it.
    Thanks for pointing out exactly what is wrong with the far left. Preach tolerance but don't practice it. Just don't expect tolerance in return from the people who you consider unworthy of your "intellectual respect."
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Thanks for pointing out exactly what is wrong with the far left. Preach tolerance but don't practice it. Just don't expect tolerance in return from the people who you consider unworthy of your "intellectual respect."
    put the broad brush away and get a detail brush out...
    thanks


    I cannot be bought, compromised, detoured, lured away, turned back, deluded, or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of adversity, negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity, or meander in the maze of mediocrity.I wont give up, shut up, let up, until I have stayed up, stored up, prayed up, paid up, and showed up for all wounded children.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Pops View Post
    put the broad brush away and get a detail brush out...
    thanks
    No, you make a very good point Pops. What I should have said is what is wrong with some people on the far left. My apologies -- I know you and many others who are atheists and agnostics can respect those of us who believe in God. It's the ones who don't who get under my skin, just as I am sure the overbearing Christians that Luth mentioned in his sermon get under yours. Again, sorry for painting with a broad brush.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Husker View Post
    I see nothing wrong with what he said. I think that which is irrational, illogical and contradictory should be treated with derision.

    I can acknowledge one's personal faith, and understand the need for it in some cases. But do not expect me to treat it, or any dogma for that matter, with intellectual respect. It doesn't deserve it.
    Ironically, the three descriptors you use are often used to describe homosexuality...and the results are the same. Odd, how extremes are very often very similar.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Thanks for pointing out exactly what is wrong with the far left. Preach tolerance but don't practice it. Just don't expect tolerance in return from the people who you consider unworthy of your "intellectual respect."
    Who's on the Left?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Husker View Post
    I see nothing wrong with what he said. I think that which is irrational, illogical and contradictory should be treated with derision.

    I can acknowledge one's personal faith, and understand the need for it in some cases. But do not expect me to treat it, or any dogma for that matter, with intellectual respect. It doesn't deserve it.
    Is it not possible to approach the Bible or the framework of faith that it describes and/or inspires with intellectual respect?

    "Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence." 1 Peter 3:15-16 (NRSV)

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Husker View Post
    Who's on the Left?
    Do you mean other than yourself?
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Ironically, the three descriptors you use are often used to describe homosexuality.
    Not by anyone I would take seriously.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Husker View Post
    Not by anyone I would take seriously.
    Exactly how I feel about someone who would use those three descriptors with respect to the Bible and/or Christianity.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Husker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    Ironically, the three descriptors you use are often used to describe homosexuality.
    Not by anyone I would take seriously.
    And, your general derision of religion...dogmatic itself by the way? Do you think it inspires anyone to take you seriously? You come of as arrogant and ill informed as those you presume to judge.

    The irony is almost absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranHusker View Post
    Is it not possible to approach the Bible or the framework of faith that it describes and/or inspires with intellectual respect?
    I would never presume to understand what inspires an individual. I would say that anything rooted in "faith" above reason cannot be respected intellectually.

    We could argue endlessly, but at some point it will come back to the singular idea that you "believe" what cannot be proven. I cannot respect that as an intellectual position.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChitownHusker View Post
    Do you mean other than yourself?
    If it helps you wrap your brain around my disdain for religion, disregarding my political stances on a variety of other topics, who am I to break your convenient little label. I wouldn't be ashamed to be on "the Left" even if it were true.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolina Husker View Post
    If it helps you wrap your brain around my disdain for religion, disregarding my political stances on a variety of other topics, who am I to break your convenient little label. I wouldn't be ashamed to be on "the Left" even if it were true.
    Which, of course, it is.
    "The distinctive mark of the Christian, today more than ever, must be love for the poor, the weak, the suffering." Pope John Paul II


  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    And, your general derision of religion...dogmatic itself by the way? Do you think it inspires anyone to take you seriously? You come of as arrogant and ill informed as those you presume to judge.

    The irony is almost absurd.
    The truly absurd position to hold is any other than "I don't know." There's nothing more pragmatic than admitting that none of us know what happens after we die, and anyone who claims to know is either lying or delusional.


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