The real George Zimmerman

[RedRum]

This version of events--and I think we can all agree that we're still getting information on what exactly happened--sure does seem to overlook a civilian with a gun chasing Martin down.

This take on Zimmerman certainly does bring more to light but it doesn't appear to cancel out the facts of that evening, even if it speaks to Zimmerman's character. I suspect he'll probably beat the charges based on the problematic law that supposedly enabled this 'self defense.'

"Civilian with a gun chasing Martin down". That's certainly not a version of events that is for sure. And Zimmerman having his gun drawn on someone at a distance would seem inconsistent with an ensuing struggle.

Is going up to someone you suspect of committing a crime and asking them what they are doing a crime? Is attacking someone for asking you what you are doing a crime, no matter how inappropriate the person may be for asking?

I would also add that Martin had been caught with stolen property in the past.

[RedRum]

Unless you are heading back from Aluquerque.

You are right. I'd be pretty far left in Santa Fe.

[Huskers57]

You are right. I'd be pretty far left in Santa Fe.

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Now you're talking
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[Showman]

"Civilian with a gun chasing Martin down". That's certainly not a version of events that is for sure. And Zimmerman having his gun drawn on someone at a distance would seem inconsistent with an ensuing struggle.

Is going up to someone you suspect of committing a crime and asking them what they are doing a crime? Is attacking someone for asking you what you are doing a crime, no matter how inappropriate the person may be for asking?

I would also add that Martin had been caught with stolen property in the past.

Seeing as this was an interaction between two complete strangers, I don't know that past personal histories make one bit of difference as far as the events of that fateful night go. Zimmerman didn't know if this kid had ever broken any laws, and Martin didn't know this guy was some kind of semi-deputized armed neighborhood watchman. Well, he did figure out he was armed.

I imagine if a stranger with a gun followed you down the street in his car, got out, chased you down and started asking you pointed questions about what you were up to, you would switch into Fight Or Flight mode yourself. We're pretty much hard-wired to do that, and I'd expect a young kid to fall back on those instincts even more than a grown-up.

[Squatchsker]

You are right. I'd be pretty far left in Santa Fe.

But you could pick up some good chiles while you are there.

[Huskers57]

But you could pick up some good chiles while you are there.

best in the world! respect.

[ChitownHusker]

If I turned left at Albequerque, I'd end up in Mexico

That assumes that you don't believe Martin's actions should have consequences as well. Both of these guys got a lot more than they bargained for.

I agree about Martin needing to face the consequences for his wrongful actions. What hasn't anyone said this before? Can we charge him with something posthumously so he doesn't get off scot-free like he has so far?

[McKinneyTXHusker]

You say tomato, I say manslaughter.

For someone that is from what I can tell a believer in consequences for your actions, you sure take a left turn at Albequerque on this one.

This version of events--and I think we can all agree that we're still getting information on what exactly happened--sure does seem to overlook a civilian with a gun chasing Martin down.

This take on Zimmerman certainly does bring more to light but it doesn't appear to cancel out the facts of that evening, even if it speaks to Zimmerman's character. I suspect he'll probably beat the charges based on the problematic law that supposedly enabled this 'self defense.'

I tend to agree with manslaughter, vs. the currently charged 2nd degree murder. And whether he beats the charges - would seem to turn on whether the jury ends up believing that he started the altercation, vs. Trayvon starting it. That's something I don't think there's incontrovertible evidence on in either direction, but I think that whatever the jury ultimately believes on that question after seeing all the evidence will be crucial.

[Showman]

My understanding is that they can (and probably will) move it down to manslaughter at some point. I also thought it was pretty clear that Zimmerman followed him and came up to him.

[McKinneyTXHusker]

My understanding is that they can (and probably will) move it down to manslaughter at some point. I also thought it was pretty clear that Zimmerman followed him and came up to him.

We're all just speculating, but I've seen at least some speculation that based on timelines and other potential evidence, that although Zimmerman apparently initially followed him, that he had broken off before actually confronting him, and then Martin turned around and followed and confronted/attacked Zimmerman. That's why I say, I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

[HuskerNCorpus]

I imagine if a stranger with a gun followed you down the street in his car, got out, chased you down and started asking you pointed questions about what you were up to, you would switch into Fight Or Flight mode yourself. We're pretty much hard-wired to do that, and I'd expect a young kid to fall back on those instincts even more than a grown-up.

During the incident, when do you believe Martin first saw the gun?

[HuskerNCorpus]

The defense is going to have key witnesses to testify to Zimmerman's work as a neighborhood watch captain. You're going to see at least 2 black adults likely get on the stand and testify to Zimmerman's defense and talk about the recent crimes in the community by at-large black offenders.

A conviction is going to be extremely difficult.

[ChitownHusker]

We're all just speculating, but I've seen at least some speculation that based on timelines and other potential evidence, that although Zimmerman apparently initially followed him, that he had broken off before actually confronting him, and then Martin turned around and followed and confronted/attacked Zimmerman. That's why I say, I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

The timeline certainly does indicate that Martin would have had time to make it back to his home prior to the confrontation if he had walked straight there. That leaves three plausible possibilities: (1) Martin doubled back, either to confront Zimmerman or to see if he was still be followed (2) Martin stopped somewhere along the way, either because he thought he was no longer being followed, or because he was distracted by talking to his girlfriend (he was 17); or (3) Martin decided to try and hide somewhere along the way.

[ChitownHusker]

The defense is going to have key witnesses to testify to Zimmerman's work as a neighborhood watch captain. You're going to see at least 2 black adults likely get on the stand and testify to Zimmerman's defense and talk about the recent crimes in the community by at-large black offenders.

A conviction is going to be extremely difficult.

I think what you just said makes conviction on any kind of a hate crime extremely difficult, and it may have some bearing on scienter for second degree murder, but I don't think it would have much relevance to manslaughter.

[McKinneyTXHusker]

The timeline certainly does indicate that Martin would have had time to make it back to his home prior to the confrontation if he had walked straight there. That leaves three plausible possibilities: (1) Martin doubled back, either to confront Zimmerman or to see if he was still be followed (2) Martin stopped somewhere along the way, either because he thought he was no longer being followed, or because he was distracted by talking to his girlfriend (he was 17); or (3) Martin decided to try and hide somewhere along the way.

Yep. And again, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. But its my educated guess that the trial potentially turns on which side can convince the jurors that the other person started the fight. If the jury believes Martin doubled back and confronted Zimmerman, then it would seem the self-defense law likely gets Zimmerman acquitted. But if the jury believes Zimmerman started the altercation, then I don't think the self-defense law can be invoked.

[HuskerNCorpus]

I think what you just said makes conviction on any kind of a hate crime extremely difficult, and it may have some bearing on scienter for second degree murder, but I don't think it would have much relevance to manslaughter.

I think if we were arguing strictly what makes the definition of manslaughter, I'd agree. But we have to take into consideration the emotions of each jury member. The prosecution is going to try and paint Zimmerman into a certain light, and it appears that the defense will have the perfect witnesses to counter it.

The defense is going to have witnesses to counter any potential racial claims (although I don't see any evidence that makes it logical for the prosecution to go that route in the first place). It's also going to have witnesses to speak on Zimmerman's role as a neighborhood watch captain. Following a stranger in the neighborhood may look bad, following a stranger in the neighborhood after the community has been hit hard by criminal activity may strike a different chord with some on the jury. Having a witness on the stand who can speak of being the victim of a burglary (while she was in the home with her infant son) and also speak of Zimmerman's genuine concern for her safety and the safety of the neighborhood will only help.

[RedRum]

Seeing as this was an interaction between two complete strangers, I don't know that past personal histories make one bit of difference as far as the events of that fateful night go. Zimmerman didn't know if this kid had ever broken any laws, and Martin didn't know this guy was some kind of semi-deputized armed neighborhood watchman. Well, he did figure out he was armed.

This is the problem with the 2nd degree murder conviction. The prosecution has to prove a depraved mind. To do that I think they will have to show he wanted the confrontation to happen so he could shoot him.

I say the best evidence against that is Zimmerman at the bottom in the fight. If he was depraved, he would have shot him on the spot, not got into a scuffle and his head pounded into the concrete.

[nems]

We're all just speculating, but I've seen at least some speculation that based on timelines and other potential evidence, that although Zimmerman apparently initially followed him, that he had broken off before actually confronting him, and then Martin turned around and followed and confronted/attacked Zimmerman. That's why I say, I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

That's correct. Given the known timeline of events, it appears that had Martin walked very slowly home he would never had encountered Zimmerman after Zimmerman hung up with 911.

Zimmerman would never have been able to catch up with him.

[Squatchsker]

Another aspect that I would like to explore is that of the scuffle itself. Hypothetically, if Zimmerman had confronted Martin and told him to stay put for the cops, who is to say he didnt grab him to keep him there? That being said Martin could have struck him to get away from him. And if Zman kept a hold of him, Martin would have tried through repeated blows to get him to let go. What say you?

[McKinneyTXHusker]

Another aspect that I would like to explore is that of the scuffle itself. Hypothetically, if Zimmerman had confronted Martin and told him to stay put for the cops, who is to say he didnt grab him to keep him there? That being said Martin could have struck him to get away from him. And if Zman kept a hold of him, Martin would have tried through repeated blows to get him to let go. What say you?

:shrug: Probably about as valid as any of the other speculation, Squatch.