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Thread: Coach Brown being Coach Brown.

  1. #401
    I don't think there's any real debate about whether discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation should be outlawed. Religious organizations are exempt but if we're going to protect people based on race and gender, we should also do so based on sexual orientation.

    The more interesting question is what penalties Ron Brown deserves for expressing a view contrary to the above. I've read here that he deserves "devastating consequences," whatever those are. I've heard it suggested that we shouldn't care at all what people like him think.

    People keep bringing up parallels to slavery so I'll suggest one more...remember how slavery ended? It wasn't a win-win scenario. When you change the laws significantly you have to ask yourself, why did we live under this system of laws for decades? Who does the change in laws hurt? And if I'm going to hurt them in order to help myself, what can I do to mitigate that?

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Huskers57 View Post
    Brown is being so vocal about this issue, it makes me think there are underlying issues at play here.
    Are you suggesting Ron Brown "protests too much" i.e. that he's secretly gay? First of all, people need to stop saying that as if it's some kind of insult. It wouldn't be.

    Further, let's play along with this hypothetical. Say RB is gay and that he denied his true nature for his entire life because he believed it to be wrong. He never strayed once, not because he didn't want to, but because he believed in doing what was right....according to his religion and according to society.

    Think about the sacrifice that entails. It's massive. And now, people are coming along telling him that his sacrifice was all in vain, that actually not only is society okay with being gay, but also his religion is bogus anyways. How do you think that's likely to go over?

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by cm husker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    lol...so, who's using fear mongering now? Comparing human sacrifice to a religious organization not wanting to hire someone in direct and continual opposition to their faith?
    It's not fearmongering. It's an example of how one's personal faith can't be allowed to give them carte blanche to behave however they please. The free exercise limitation doesn't mean what you are trying to stretch it to mean.

    Plus, what happen to the old adage, your rights end where another man's nose begins?

    The analysis would be different if you were talking about a religious organization hiring people; but in the public arena, people aren't allowed to discriminate (if society passes such a law) even if their personal moral code teaches them to. Would you be ok with faith based racial discrimination?

    As to your second paragraph, I would expect that a Muslim organization should have every right to not hire an avowed Christian if they feel it compromises their personal convictions or religious exercise.
    If you limited your opinion to religious organization hirings, I'd agree with you.
    I'd absolutely be willing to limit it to faith based organizations...And possibly to small family owned businesses.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    I'd absolutely be willing to limit it to faith based organizations...And possibly to small family owned businesses.
    Religious organizations are exempt from the Omaha ordinance IIRC.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by huskerator 5000 View Post
    Are you suggesting Ron Brown "protests too much" i.e. that he's secretly gay? First of all, people need to stop saying that as if it's some kind of insult. It wouldn't be.

    Further, let's play along with this hypothetical. Say RB is gay and that he denied his true nature for his entire life because he believed it to be wrong. He never strayed once, not because he didn't want to, but because he believed in doing what was right....according to his religion and according to society.

    Think about the sacrifice that entails. It's massive. And now, people are coming along telling him that his sacrifice was all in vain, that actually not only is society okay with being gay, but also his religion is bogus anyways. How do you think that's likely to go over?
    So basically this would be saying he behaves as a heterosexual despite the way he was born and who he's attracted to. That to me should be a clear indication to him that maybe it isn't so wrong to begin with if it's the way God created him. At any rate, I don't buy into the "he doth protest too much" in this particular situation.

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan


  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by The Impaler View Post
    So basically this would be saying he behaves as a heterosexual despite the way he was born and who he's attracted to. That to me should be a clear indication to him that maybe it isn't so wrong to begin with if it's the way God created him. At any rate, I don't buy into the "he doth protest too much" in this particular situation.
    I don't buy the theory either, or at least I don't have a reason to.

    But contrary to your second sentence, I think it'd be easy for someone to think their feelings although innate were morally wrong. Lots of people have innate feelings of a sexual or violent nature that their religion tells them to squash. For example, most religious married men think their gut-level instinct to sleep around is morally wrong. So a secretly-gay case would be like a much more extreme/difficult version of that.

    RB was put in an orphanage and stuff, probably didn't always have a strongest sense that his innermost feelings were worthy. But still, yeah I don't buy this theory about RB, I just wanted to point out how I would understand someone having misplaced anger if they in fact lived their life that way.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by SealBeachHusker View Post
    lol...are you seriously arguing that the Constitution did not expressly set out to protect the free exercise of religion?

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

    Not sure I understand your angry bigot rant. I assume religious bigotry, though, is acceptable to you.


    Right, still not an anti-discrimination clause and still is not relevant to the argument. Because as it stands right now, religion is not generally an acceptable excuse for other sorts of inappropriate discrimination. Homosexual behavior is neither harmful in of itself nor is it a choice, based on all of the observable evidence. If I can't use my religion as an excuse for hating women , blacks or Moslems then why is it an excuse for gays. Like I said before you would have a decent case if it weren't for stuff like the legal precedents for anti-discrimination laws, and everything that scientists have observes about the gay community.

    Also, bigotry is not a particularly strong word in this case because that's exactly what this is, try firing someone for just being a Christian. Yet they are attempting to deny the same protection to gays. Also, I'm not advocating public hiring and housing discrimination against Christians, simply advocating the idea that our public code should not have exception because of the dogmas of a popular religion. What you're saying is that by not supporting public tolerance of intolerance that I am somehow intolerant my self. A non sequitur if I ever read one.

    Also, to all of you who claim that our ethics are beholden to Christianity, I say you are ignoring the history of your own church, and of ethical thought in general. There are many more relevant thoughts on ethical behavior then just the ones contained in the dogmas of Christianity. Also, you should know that by saying that ethics and morals require christian thought, you are insulting any secularists who reads your writing. The most insulting thing I've read was the idea that without God "anything goes" I have a hard time thinking of anything more arrogant, disrespectful and flat out inaccurate.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by cm husker View Post
    This can't possibly be the correct reading... what if my faith dictated human sacrifice, perhaps among a willing member of the faith? Would I be allowed to sacrifice a fellow parishioner, even if they consented? Of course not.

    Or what if my faith dictated discrimination against Christians, including refusing to hire them or firing them upon discovering their faith?

    When one's faith impacts those around them, it is subject to regulation.
    Careful Sealbeach, CM likes twisting things to prove a point. You should ask CM, if there is a religion that believed in human sacrifice does the Constitution protect that religion's right to believe in human sacrifice? Then ask him does it protect the right to practice human sacrifice? There is a difference in how laws cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, but they can with how religion is practiced.

    After you get that answer, you should then ask him how the Supreme Court interprets the Free Excercise Clause of the Constitution particularly in one of Chi's favorite cases, Hosana Tabor. Then ask him how the court sees the difference in the Hosana Tabor case vs. the extreme example of human sacrifice that he provided.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." Ayn Rand

    "Hillary has been cheated on more than a blind woman playing Scrabble. With gypsies." Dennis Miller


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