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Thread: Why do we, particularly atheists and agnostics, give deference to clergy

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LutheranHusker View Post
    I do get the sense sometimes that people think clergy are somehow holier or closer to God or something than other folks. My thought is that a lot of that is a relic of the days of "Herr Pastor", where the pastor was more untouchable and up on more of a pedestal. You didn't question and you put on your best Sunday face for them.

    Thankfully, that model is disappearing, thanks to a greater insistence (IMO) on authenticity as regards church and faith. And that's a good thing. Pastors aren't called to a higher calling, just a different one...that's part of Luther's idea of the priesthood of all believers. Clergy are just regular people whose vocation is service through Word and Sacrament. They screw up, can be very wrong about things, are fellow sinners in need of the cross, have kids that misbehave, and even poop and fart. And it doesn't smell like unicorns and roses. At least not yet. I'll have to see if that changes after ordination.

    That authenticity is good for the pastor, because their humanity is acknowledged. It's good for the church too, because the pastor is then a partner in ministry, not a fountain of answers or a channel to God.

    And maybe I'm just fooling myself, but for the most part I think that's the approach I've seen on the board, too.

    Sonuva isn't afraid to call me out when he disagrees with me. Just a few weeks ago, Corpus helped me see where I needed to be more cautious in statements I made in a sermon. SealbeachHusker has made me change my mind on whether abortion should be legal. Pushback from the resident atheists have helped me better articulate what I believe and why I think it makes a difference. Chitown and I still go back and forth on works and grace.

    I'd encourage anyone reading this, whether you post or are a lurker, to not be afraid to push clergy on what they believe. Most of them live for that kind of interaction. Seriously...that's what I love about this board is all the varied perspectives all bumping up against each other in a search for truth.
    Thanks Luth. I think you will be/are a great minister of the word. (Should word be capitalized.) Consider keeping politics, whatever they may be, out of the Sunday sermons. Your post is pretty close to the intent of the thread. I think your first post was that you appreciate a discussion about the topic so we proceeded with it. I have great respect for clergy. To be honest with you, not quite as much respect as I have for the military or the law enforcement, but that is just me. I have been on church councils and have provided tax advice to clergy. They are human like the rest of us. I look forward to your comments next week-end. How you react will be of extreme interest to me and hopefully others on HM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    Thanks Luth. I think you will be/are a great minister of the word. (Should word be capitalized.) Consider keeping politics, whatever they may be, out of the Sunday sermons. Your post is pretty close to the intent of the thread. I think your first post was that you appreciate a discussion about the topic so we proceeded with it. I have great respect for clergy. To be honest with you, not quite as much respect as I have for the military or the law enforcement, but that is just me. I have been on church councils and have provided tax advice to clergy. They are human like the rest of us. I look forward to your comments next week-end. How you react will be of extreme interest to me and hopefully others on HM.
    What happens next weekend?

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPhoenix View Post
    What happens next weekend?
    I got post number 1,260 coming up.


    So there's that.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasilLongfellow View Post
    I got post number 1,260 coming up.


    So there's that.
    Well yeah but we didn't invite Luth to that celebration.

  5. #105
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    Is there supposed to be another rapture? Cause I don't want to brag or anything.....but I've already survived 5 of those.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonuvahusker View Post
    I often remind people of how the dems try to portray candidates as something other than what they are (i.e. Obama is just like Romney). The same thing happens here. Tango was potrayed as something he's not, and ended up off the board as a result. And it's happened to other posters since. What's interesting is that, like in real life, the usual culprits here are dems (or dems who claim they aren't dems).

    Once again, no one attacked Luth. But many of those who this thread IS about tried to make it look that way.
    If you take my posts as defending Luth from an "attack", you're as far off-base as tango's comment that he sees the "lack of sincerity" in how agnostics/atheists treat Luth. I don't need to defend Luth, he's a big boy. But I will most definitely stand up to someone saying that my and others interactions with him are insincere. And I stated why. You'll find I was on point before tango threw that out there.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonuvahusker View Post
    I think you've completely missed the point of the thread. And that surprises me. You're one of the more adept posters around here.

    Some people here are masters at taking a thread about one thing, and making it about something else because they are either uncomfortable with the topic, or they lack the cognitive ability to have an honest discussion.
    I like this verse from the desiderata:

    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and the ignorant;
    they too have their story.
    Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
    they are vexatious to the spirit.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Crawdad View Post
    I like this verse from the desiderata:

    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and the ignorant;
    they too have their story.
    Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
    they are vexatious to the spirit.
    In my opinion Desiterada is a great way to live ones life, following the Word of God.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    Thanks for the post Squatch. So would you say, not knowing the individual, you/society gives members of the clergy deference/respect until they know what is being offered/taught?

    I realize the thread is disjointed. Have you seen the Desidarata Poem. How would an agnostic apply the tenets of desiderata.

    http://www.fleurdelis.com/desiderata.htm
    Not sure what you mean asking "How would an agnostic apply the tenets....." It seems to be a pretty good and general list of sound advice.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    In my opinion Desiterada is a great way to live ones life, following the Word of God.
    I would agree with that. I go with simple karma.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasilLongfellow View Post
    I got post number 1,260 coming up.


    So there's that.

    Too late. You haven't left time for the necessary "quiet period" prior to a milestone post like that.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Crawdad View Post
    I like this verse from the desiderata:

    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and the ignorant;
    they too have their story.
    Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
    they are vexatious to the spirit.
    'Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
    Too noble to neglect
    Deceived me into thinking
    I had something to protect
    Good and bad, I define these terms
    Quite clear, no doubt, somehow
    Ah, but I was so much older then
    I'm younger than that now.'










  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatchsker View Post
    As far as agnostics go, it would be simple. They still dont know, so to show respect as deference to an individual that may help them come to a conclusion in their spritual path is only logical. Unless they have totally disregarded what sort of teachings that particular member of the clergy puts forth. If that be the case I can only assume it would be out of respect for the fact that said Clergyman has what the Agnostic wants. A clear and definitive spiritual path in their life.

    As far as athiests, I can see where the other assertions could be correct as far as acknowledging learned individuals that are merely trying to help others. THose that may not be quite as sure of their path as a dyed in the wool athiest may be.
    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    Thanks for the post Squatch. So would you say, not knowing the individual, you/society gives members of the clergy deference/respect until they know what is being offered/taught?

    I realize the thread is disjointed. Have you seen the Desidarata Poem. How would an agnostic apply the tenets of desiderata.

    http://www.fleurdelis.com/desiderata.htm

    I would say yes initially, and then in continuance even if the teachings dont include what would appeal to the Agnostic spiritually. Just as long as the teachings werent of discrimination or a place of backwards ignorance from the Agnostic's point of view. Any respectful human being might say thanks and carry on. Any deference after that would merely be from a position of humane respect and seeking of the Truth.

    As far as the Desidarata Poem, I beleive a true Agnostic would take it as wisdom to use on their path until they find their answers. If it be that hey find no God, it still give useful tidbits about life. If they find that God exists for them then it is a collection of verse to soothe in times of need. Either way it can be useful. Prose is beautiful in that way, good for those seeking and those that have found.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
    In my opinion Desiterada is a great way to live ones life, following the Word of God.
    What happens next weekend?

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Crawdad View Post
    If you take my posts as defending Luth from an "attack", you're as far off-base as tango's comment that he sees the "lack of sincerity" in how agnostics/atheists treat Luth.
    I don't.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonuvahusker View Post
    Tango was potrayed as something he's not...

    ...the usual culprits here are dems (or dems who claim they aren't dems).
    Ironic. It seems only Sonuva knows how to portray people on this board.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoREDo View Post
    Ironic. It seems only Sonuva knows how to portray people on this board.
    You noticed that too I see!

  18. #118
    Oh my!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPhoenix View Post
    You noticed that too I see!
    Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut...
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." Ayn Rand

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  19. #119
    pray for me ;)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_in_Blue_Land View Post
    Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut...
    Meaning what?
    Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.Bill Watterson, cartoonist, "Calvin and Hobbes"

  20. #120
    Oh my!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColoREDo View Post
    Meaning what?
    Quote Originally Posted by RedPhoenix View Post
    You noticed that too I see!
    Every broken clock is right twice a day...
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." Ayn Rand

    "Hillary has been cheated on more than a blind woman playing Scrabble. With gypsies." Dennis Miller




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